a scroll design in progress

[bthomas]

One of the neat things about this forum is that it has members at all stages of development. If like me you are in the early stages of the craft you really appreciate when others post.

There are several threads running currently that are real aids for studying both design and shading.
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?12985-comic-book-drawing
http://www.engraverscafe.com/showthread.php?12995-shading-a-design

These threads are just what I need at present. Recently I have been making small steps with both the scroll design and the shading on a knife project I assigned myself....now inspired by others I am eager to do it again with the link threads as reference to guide me.

Pics of the journey:

starting out

as I viewed this it quickly lead me to another design concept (a heck of a lot less background removal for one thing)

While it would be easy to take a position why not work this out on practice plates, for me I decided I was at a stage that I preferred to work on a knife rather than a practice plate. Not sure how cost effective that will prove but it does keep the concentration focused.

Bill

 

[monk]

i'm sure that will sell ! nice lookin work. thanks for sending this.

 

[Bama]

For me it is hard to spend time on a practice plate and end up with just another piece to clutter up the shop. I like your idea, you can work on a nice but reasonably price knife that you can sell and go on to the next piece. I am at about the same place with my engraving and I find myself getting bored with a practice plate. When I get bored I do not do my best quality work. I enjoy engraving very much so now it is time to move on to projects myself.

 

[Dale Hatfield]

@ Bthomas I really like the second design better than the first.However both look good and both will sell. The designs I did not study or look for faults as Im just less than 6 months into engraving .
@ Bama I feel your pain. I have a pile of steel that I prepped from a class that didnt happen. They are all mounted but need striped of color and polished. I would rather work on something like a bracelet .Something even though it has faults can be used by a loved one or sold . I have practice plates piled up and a few I keep on the bench that I will try new stuff on. BUt to work on something that has no value other than my lesson escapes me. Im going to do didyoung design just as soon as figure out what to put it on .

 

[bronc]

I cut on practice plates for 2 years before I sold much of anything. I would also fabricate items like buckles, conchos, bracelets, ect.to cut on but these were still just practice pieces. I was learning to build and engrave at the same time. I had a plan before I ever started this that I didn't want to to sell my work until it was fairly presentable. I've got a couple boxes full of all that old stuff and I'm sure glad it's in those boxes and not out where it can be seen by the public. I did sell a few pieces of jewelry early on and I shudder every time I see them now. That early work can come back to haunt a guy! Just my 2 cents on the subject lol.
Stewart

 

[Haraga.com]

I like the second one. Is it for sale?

 

[bthomas]

I am interested in the comments and appreciate everyone trying to help.

I did cut these with the intention of selling them, but I also appreciate Stewart's comments. I have engraving work going back for more than 10 years ...and some of my earliest pieces were cut on firearms. Then after some butchery there is a period where I worked on practice pieces only. Why , well what changed was I actually got to see and handle some engraved work of others and realized how big the gap was in a lot of areas, how clean I was cutting, how I was contorting scrolls and how I was managing shading.

Well on the bright side they weren't expensive firearms and now as Stewart cautions I am thankful I have each of these early guns and never let any of them out for public consumption. I was content to keep cutting on old revolvers and various shotguns, that is until I was able to see some other's works and then I halted altogether briefly and thn concentrated on practice plates which I should have done more of from the get go but I was working in a vacuumn.

Its not hard to recall that at the time I cut some of the guns I felt a lot better about them than I do these days.

Regards these Al Mar knives , yes I had hoped to sell these and hope that in another 10 years my engraving has improved enough that they make me blush.

BTW I am soliciting input, if there isn't spot in the market for these production knives (if they aren't ready) you are doing me a favor by letting me know and I recognize and appreciate that good intentioned advise.

Bill

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Bill

First of all I would commend you that you have stuck with it and I can relate to wanting to cut anything other than square practice plates. They get old very quickly

The answer is yes, there is a market for the knives but I would suggest that you quietly put them away in a drawer and not try to sell them. They will come back to haunt you. Just chalk them up to experience.

What I am about to say I don't want you to take the wrong way as it's not meant to offend but rather put you on a better path.

The design and execution of the engraving is a butchers mess and there's not really any other way to describe it. You have chosen a very difficult style to emulate that few people can carry off and make look good.

Your design is all over the place with no clear flow to it. You've ignored the border space that you have to work with. Your shading is the same as the main cuts so everything just blends in to make a mess of things visually.


HOWEVER..........you seem to know the processes of cutting, relieving, stippling and drawing. So I have a couple of suggestions for you to help lift your game.

The first is go back to standard American type scrolls in your design. Learn to draw and cut one good scroll with leaves on a practice plate. There are plenty of books and DVD's out there to show you how. Once you can draw and cut one good scroll it's just a matter of joining another one onto it and so forth..............do not try anything over complicated till you can do this. Stick with simple designs first. I cannot over emphasis how important it is to do this.

Secondly, learn to fill the frame properly. That means scrolls/leaves etc touching borders without huge ugly gaps of blank space. Troll through the tips archive and you will find some useful tutorials. This is an important area and one which is often ignored. That means taking odd shapes like knife bolsters and filling the area appropriately.

Your shading.........use a light hand while doing this. Start from very thin to thick as you progress down the cut. Start by having your hand quite low and then just gently raise it. As this happens the tool will naturally go deeper. Practice it on a practice plate. There should be a noticeable difference between the main cuts/outlines and the shading cuts.

When you can do these things..........then go back to the Almar knives.

You clearly have the concepts in your head. It is the design and execution letting you down. Go back to the basics and build it up from there.

You can do it!!

Cheers
Andrew

 

[bthomas]

Andrew,

From the beginning of this thread I acknowledged what makes this forum an incredible resource is that there are members at all stages. You have achieved a portfolio of beautiful work and you taking your time to evaluate and respond in a straightforward and candid way is very much appreciated. [as well as the work you do for FEGA].

I don't have to sell these, I can keep them or share them with family as I have a number of other engravings.

I started with Frank Hendrick's FEGA tapes and Meek's book a dozen years ago and one thing I can pass along to others starting out is that I worked too long in isolation relied too much on what I could get on my own from books or tapes not interacting with other engravers or taking classes. That has lead me where I am with a oddly unbalanced hodge podge of varying skills.

Since retiring from industry a bit over a year ago I have tried to draw and cut more and importantly to meet other engravers in an effort to improve. The help I get from others and help you have given is sorely needed if I am going to get my work presentable.

Thank you.
Bill

 

[Andrew Biggs]

Hi Bill

Yes, sometimes we can be a bit isolated when it comes to this sort of thing. It's something I think we all suffer from time to time.

One thing I would suggest is to slow down a bit. Our natural inclination is to rip through a project as fast as possible and then onto the next. Now if your income depends on that then fair enough. But if you are practicing there is a lot to be said for taking your time. Three quarters of the battle is just sheer patience and persistence.

At this stage aim for quality. When your drawing is complete as best it can be........sit on it for a few days and stop looking at it. After a few days you'll see things a bit clearer and make alterations. As silly as it sounds, look at your drawing upside down. It should look good from all directions. Make sure you fill the space and scroll backbones and leaves touch the borders etc. Colour the background in with pencil on your drawings. Things look a lot defferent when you do that.

Cutting. Take your time. Make sure that scroll stems join properly where they are intersected. If a curve isn't right then fix it.

Backgrounds. Make them neat with an even depth background and make sure the stippling is nice and even with no ridges. Once you have stippled pull the scope right back or look at it through the naked eye and even out rough areas.

Shading. Follow the contours of the leaf and use a light touch. Keep your lines close together and addd shading where there are overlaps etc. Use a lot more shading. It can make you go blind but is worth the effort.

All of these things matter because an engraving is a complete package and each thing can make or break a piece of work. However the most important thing is always the design. To begin with keep it simple and do it properly. Take it step by step and as you progress then your designs can become more complex........That is your foundation that you will build from.


Cheers
Andrew

 

[bthomas]

Updates:
1. 1st knife shown has had the engraving ground off so it could be recycled/re-engraved with an improved design. A design that is meant to fill space, and have a better flow , and hopefully is more easily sorted out by the viewer.
[ had to try to salvage, these get expensive if you nix the plan of cutting and selling to re-coup the knife]


so this knife has had this engraving ground off smooth for a second attempt

it now looks like this

2. I asked and recieved help tweaking the design of my scroll pattern from a professional engraver (no names to protect the innocent)
3. At the same time I recieved valuable instruction on shading

along the way:

4. Before cutting the new pattern on the knife I cut it several times on practice plates, and practiced shading tech using multiple source material

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

You made a lot of progress on this one. Smart starting on a practice plate first

arnaud

 

[bthomas]

the "Butcher's mess" (a series of cutting and design excercises)

the "Butcher's mess" has become a series and now stands at 3 knives, two of which had the original engravings ground away and were re-engraved. It has been a good excerise for me and I believe my tool control, sharpening and shading have benefitted from Andrew Bigg's critque.

top knife has flat black DeRusto applied....bottom 2 are as cut w/o blackening

this earlier effort has been ground away (80 grit belt, filed w 000,stoned w 320 & 600)
it now has been recut (and is the most recent version) and now looks like this:

the third knife in the group shot was the 2nd cut in the series and looks like this

with each cutting I have been exploring 1. variations of shading (how heavy my hand is, how lines are spaced taper and curve) 2. how slight shifts in element spacing affect how one's eye reacts 3. how varying leaf folds etc can help lead/guide the viewer's eye...it is both a strength and weakness of the overall design.... that there is so much "going on" that it lends itself to this exploration with each cutting. For me it has been challenging and remains so.