1st post advice: GRS Benchmate & Acrobat stand?

alFrumpus

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Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Hello everyone. I'm Allan from Saskatoon, Canada. I found your site while googling for information on microscopes and GRS Acrobat stands. I believe I have only begun to pry the lid away on this vast engraving resource which is your forum. Thanks to whomever started the site! (Sam?)

I hate to be long-winded, but I thought I'd give some background before asking advice. My questions are mostly directed to goldsmiths/jewellers, but in general to anyone who can give advice on bench ergonomics:


I have been apprenticing as a goldsmith for four years. In 2005 I spent a couple days in Geneva with Kees Englebarts ( www.kees.ch - stunning work!). I fell in love with his microscope-approach for hand-engraving and have wanted one ever since. Now after four years of trying to adjust my chair/bench/tool set-up to alleviate irritating upper beck/neck pain (and problems below), I spent the last two weeks researching workplace ergonomics. I found that:

A. I tilt my head down too much to view with a loupe (neck pain, almost every day)
B. I lean my torso forward over my tray too much to reach my benchpeg (back pain)
C. I raise my "tool hand" elbow too high when engraving/burnishing, etc. (arm-numbness)
D. I press my "clamp hand" elbow too hard into my bench/tray (forearm numbness)
E. I pinch my "tool" hand too hard - especially when burnishing (finger pain/numbness)
F. I pinch my "clamp" hand fingers too tightly when filing/engraving tiny objects (finger pain/numbness)
G. Since I lean my torso forward, my legs feel most comfortable UNDER my chair to counterbalance (causes knee-joint problems)

(Geez, what a list! I never compared myself to Quasimodo before this moment.)

I've learned that ergonomics starts with a well-adjusted chair, and the bench/tools are built around it. So my guess is that a microscope and a GRS Benchmate "may" solve most of these problems. My boss is quite supportive, but in his 30 years of hand-engraving has never used a microscope or "power"-engravers, so I've agreed to "suffer" as the guinea pig. :) I just bought a Meiji EMZ microscope yesterday on eBay ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320225468210&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=011 ), both to relieve pain but also for all the benefits of binocular magnification over a single loupe.

I have not yet bought a Benchmate; I'm still not certain it'll solve the fingertip numbness/pain caused by tremendous pinching/clamping pressures when engraving, burnishing, etc..

We currently have a seperate table with a Victor block - just for hand-engraving, and another bench for casting ingots. Other than that, ALL my goldsmithing duties are done at my workbench: anealling/quenching, ring-bending, mandrel-hammering, saw-piercing, filing (gold+wax), wax-carving, sanding, burnishing, stone-setting/unsetting, etc....

My Questions:
1. Is the GRS Benchmate all it's cracked up to be? Also, how well can it hold small objects (i.e. a peg-setting)?

2. Is the GRS Acrobat stand essential for a microscope? Or will a stationary stand suffice (like the one I just bought)?


Thanks in advance for your input!
-Al
(P.S. I loved Kees' Gravermax, but for now our shop is engraving without power tools.)
 

nicglass1

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San Angelo, Tx
hello, i guess officially i have been a goldsmith for a little over 5 years, but a little background. i am a 6th generation goldsmith, i grew up in a shop, just something my family does, the same as since my son was 3 weeks old he has been coming to work with daddy. anyway, alot of my equipment and tools were actually my great grandfather and my grand fathers, my mom (she owns the store) and i just switch them back and forth. so lets just say i don't have a 300 dollar chair to work from. the only thing i can say about a chair is get one that is adjustable in height. my bench is about mid-chest to a maybe a little higher, so i have to move my chair up so that i am sitting straight up instead of leaning over. when i am engraving and just drop my vice down into my bench drough becuase i can't work with it up so high, so i can lower my chair so that i am sitting over the top of my work instead of eye level. you are still going to have the neck pain from looking down, only way to fix that is getting a microscope so that you are looking forward instead of straight down. also, for your clamping hand going numb, if you haven't already notched your bench pin then you need to. just make a half round notch in the lower left hand corner (if you file with your right) so that you can hook a ring shank over it while you file. this will relieve alot of the stress and pressure your hand has to put on the ring. and for filing inside rings shanks get your half round file and make a trench from the lower right hand corner towards the middle of the pin, and then make a cross section in that trench so that you can set a ring in there and basically just hold some down pressure on it to hold it upright and still. for filing small objects see if you can wrap a pair a paralled pliers in either soft leather or masking tape (to avoid maring) and the hold that again your bench pin while you file, it should help some. and if your hands and arms keeps going numb keep adjusting your chair until you find the right hieght for you, if they are going numb, raise your chair up. hmmmm well i think that is about it, so i myself have been rather long winded, but i hope that some of this helps. i really can't contribute anything to the engraving part of this forum, but i do know something about being a goldsmith even though there are much older and wiser heads in here that will probably not agree with anything i have just said. take it easy.

one more thing, yes the bench mate is worth it if you get the complete kit. it will save you a ton of time and alot of head aches.
 

jlseymour

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nicglass1, For 5 years on the bench you sound like you were there when Great Grandpa,Grandpa and your Dad set you on his knee...

Great advice...

I'm almost 65-39=26, sometimes...
Jerry
 

jlseymour

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Sorry,
I've had a benchmate for 25yrs and I use the block for filing with a V cut into the center and fix the rest of it as I need to fit an object to file...
The ring holder from benchmate... I use and it holds great... All the others except the arms with the alligator clamps I have used very little or not at all... We have used the third hand for years and it is better than benchmate since that's what you must have been taught to use...
Enough...
Jerry
 

nicglass1

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the inside ring hold, that goes on the inside and spreads out, works great for things like channel setting and things of that nature. never could get the hang of the third hand thing, but alot of people like them.
 

ddushane

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Back, Neck & Ergonomics

Al & Everyone else, I was invited to Shanna Moran’s home & shop last night to check out her new toy, Shanna, You lucky Beast! I was totally impressed with Shanna’s new Dulin-Hawk Hand Engraving Platform. WOW! As I was leaving last night I couldn’t help but think of how much more time I could spend at the bench with one of these, than I can right now with my current set up. Some of you guys know about my nine back surgeries and I’m also having problems with my neck so my time at the bench is very limited. Anyway, setting at this thing was amazing!!!!! It was hard for me to get into my mind what Shanna was telling me before when she tried to explain it to me but sitting at it made all the difference in the world. And the way it can be made to order if some one wants their GraverMax or whichever machine they’re using in a different area say for engraving rifles or shotguns and don’t want to take the barrels of or if someone is mostly engraving on big items such as heads or jugs for a motorcycle engine or bells the table can be set up totally different with the same great ergonomics.
I’m not in the engraving for the money like so many of you guys are. I’m not saying I’m going to do it for free! If I’m going to spend time out in my shop away from my beautiful wife and great kids and grandkids I’m gonna get paid for it. Now I love to engrave and make knives, I have a passion for it. When Momma’s in bed and the kids have all gone home, Pa Pa can go outside and play. I’ve been limited at the bench to an hour, maybe I can get an hour & a half before I’m hurting so bad I’ve got to go in & lay down in my recliner for a spell, now I’m not complaining, just stating facts, God has blessed me and I’ve done pretty much anything I’ve wanted to do for that past 10 yrs since my last surgery but I still can’t sit at my bench as long as I would like to. Now from the stand point of making a living where other engravers are, If a man or woman has like problems with their neck and back and are limited on there time spent at the bench, You gotta check this baby out! I can truly see where I’ll be able to spend 3 to 4 times longer at a sitting than in my current set up. Man! What kind of productivity are you talking about? You know how much you charge an hour for your work and that’s your business but what I’m saying is if you’re charging $50 an hour for instance and you can work two hours before you start hurting so you quit for a while, you’ve made a $100, but if you can work six hours you’ve made $300 bucks, that speaks for itself! I’m excited about this thing. I truly wish all of you guys could sit at this thing and play with it. There a lever under the table that you push and No effort at all with your knee you can raise or lower the table up and your work just magically comes into focus. The way it can be set up for any scope and just customized for any different type of engraving is truly amazing. It was set for Shanna, she’d been working on a piece and when I came over and sat down at it I put something in the vise that was at a different height and we being different heights ourselves, everything needed to be changed to accommodate me, it literally took maybe a minute and a half to two minutes before I was cutting. Now to me that is Awesome. I love it! It’s the neatest thing since peanut butter in my opinion! The design and execution of this workspace is top shelf, I welded in the oil field for 14 yrs and was certified for eighteen different oil and gas companies. I know what quality work, looks like and this is quality work, there are so many things that you don’t see until you sit at this thing and really take it all in, it has adjustable rubber feet so it can be adjusted anywhere you put and be level, the rubber feet and the beefyness of this thing makes vibration non existent. You would think because of the scope being mounted to the same thing the vise is mound to you’d have some vibration, Not there! I’m in love with this thing, I can build anything I want to build and I pride myself on putting out the very best possible, I literally cannot see anything on this thing that needs to be improved on, maybe altered for different applications but not improved. It truly is a work of art. I’ve included some pictures, wish there were some of out in the middle of the floor so we could get some 360 degree shots of it, maybe in the near future. Anyway, sorry to be so long winded but I'm blown away by this because of my back and neck and what this does, Here's the pictures, Dwayne





 

allan621

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The acrobat stand is essential for using the meji, especially if you are going to be doing jewelry work. We have tried a few different microscope stands and found that for general jewelry work the acrobat is flat out the best. You may find a stand with a different configuration that is supposed to be like the GRS acrobat stand, it isn't. And we have about 12,000 hours use on my acrobat stand without a lick of aggravation.

Now with that you should move the Victor off the bench and get one of the GRS shelf combination that moves the Victor below the level of your bench top.
http://grstools.com/benchmate.html
Items B C D and N

It keeps you sitting up straight and takes a lot of stress off the upper body, plus you never have to lift your arms to burnish.

I haven't personally used the GRS benchmate but the six jewelers in our shop have all ordered them and find them pretty much invaluable for setting work. Most of the diamond setters in Philadelphia that I know have basically all gone over to them as well for basic stone work.

Oh, and if you haven't yet gotten yourself an air driven graver tool, get one. I used hand powered tools for about twenty five years and have to say that even though I thought I did some high quality work before, the Lindsay Classic Airgraver has really lifted my game a great deal. I have had the less expensive foot pedal model for about six years, use it at work and at home, have never had a lick of problem with it and when Steve figured a way to upgrade it, it only cost a little over a hundred dollars to retrofit the improvement into it. We now have four going constantly in our shop and they are amazing little workhorses. We have everything GRS in our shops except for Air Gravers.

Oh, and if your boss is really really really understanding, get him to try one of the GRS blocks. We ditched all of our Victors in favor of the GRS standard size blocks; even though it took work to get some of the holding pins and jigs to fit into the GRS hole tops, its been worth it.

Allan
 
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Mike Cirelli

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All stands and fixtures aside, the biggest reason for your numbness and arm pain is from your spine with no doubt. Poor posture is a killer on the spine. The microscope is the best for solving the problem. If when your standing straight up and your ears are in front of your shoulders your spine is curving (bad news for the nerves). All the nerves to your arm hand and finger tips come from the spine. When you stress your spine arthritis can set in and the nerves start getting pinched and that means pain and numbness. Been there it just took about 25 years.
 

ddushane

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Just in case anyone is interested in the "Dulin-Hawk Platform" I'm attaching a spec sheet for it. It can be configured so that it can be used sitting or standing. I'm not a salesman and I don't try to sale my knives or my engraving because I don't think my stuff is the best on the marked or the best fit and finish on the market, I do do the best I can and always try to improve but I've always let my work speak for itself and it's kept me pretty busy. On the other hand I do believe in others to the point where I can sale their work, I'm always bragging on some of you guys and what yall do. I'm constantly showing guys I work with yalls engraving, I've got police officers that I work with that are almost as familiar with Sam's work as I am, I'm always bragging on him. I love the GRS stuff, when someone asks me about getting into engraving I send them to GRS's website cause I've got quiet a bit of their stuff and love everything I have and have never had any problems with any of it. So I brag about them or try to sell people I know on their products, not to say anything bad about Steve Lindsay's stuff, & I do love his work but I don't have any of his machinery and so therefore don't brag about it or try to sway people to buy his stuff. Anyway that is why I'm saying what I am on this engraving platform, it is awesome. At the bottom of the spec sheet there is contact information for anyone that is interested in learning more. Later, Dwayne
 
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ddushane

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I can't seem to get the attachment to go there on this forum for some reason, if anyone is interested send me a private message asking me to email it to you and I'll get it to you. Dwayne
 

RT Bit and Spur

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First post advice

alFrompus
I should start a new post on this. I was looking at a GRS booth at a show and noticed the camera and screen
looked great. I went home and set up a stand with a camera over my engraving block and look at a screen.
I can change the power to fit the situation and sit any where I want to and have my vice at any angle I like.
If I get tired I can change positions. If I get tired of looking at the screen I can move my chair or the screen.
Rod
 

Ray Cover

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I don't think they have a website set up yet Jerry.

I emailed for pricing info last night and I am waiting for a reply to see what they cost.

I would not mind having on for the school here.

Ray
 

Ray Cover

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Marcus,

I downloaded their spec sheet off of the Knifenetwork forum and from that it sounds like they are making these on a semi-custom basis so they can make additions to suite your needs. I am still waiting for a reply as to the cost.

Ray
 

Ray Cover

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I just copy and pasted the spec sheet here so you all can see it.


DULIN-HAWK HAND ENGRAVING PLATFORM

An innovative concept in hand engraving tools, this platform is designed specifically to accommodate the unique needs of hand engravers as they transform firearms, knives, fine jewelry, watches, flatware, holloware, motorcycle parts and any other engravable surface, into heirloom works of art to be enjoyed for generations to come.

* Hand Fabricated Welded Steel Construction
* Durable Powder Painted Finish
* Sleek Design – No Obtrusive Bolts or Screws

* Rubber Padded Leveling Feet on the Base
The platform can sit true and level on any floor surface

* Three Quarter Inch Steel Plate Table for Absolute Rigidity
Perfectly Motionless Table
Accommodates Heavy and Awkward Items

* Spring Mechanism Allows Convenient Table Adjustment
Table Height Adjustable Vertically from 23.75â€￾ to extended 35.00â€￾ above floor
Accommodates Very Large and Very Small Items
Work While Standing or Sitting

* Free Turn Radius Up to 24.50 inches
Allows Engraving on almost any Gun, Knife or Large Flatware Serving Piece

* Table Accommodates Any Working Vise
Low Profile Vise with Turntable
Fixed Vise
Ball Vise
GRS Magnablock Type
GRS Positioning Vise

* Any Microscope Holding Arrangement Possible
Acrobat Configuration
V-9 Type
User Specific
Accommodates Custom Lighting Elements

* Accessory Table(s) Available
Custom Sizes for GRS Graver Max and Graver Mach
Can Be Attached Anywhere on the Base
Fully Moveable
Additional Custom Sizes Available

* Designed for Any Work Chair, Stool or Wheelchair

* Custom Specifications
Designed For Your Personal Needs
Height, Weight or Physical Challenges
Work Faster, More Comfortably and For Longer Periods of Time

Completely designed to your specifications, we will hand fabricate your engraving platform in our Midland, Texas shop. Convenient containerized shipping will be available.

For further information please contact Shanna Hawk Moran at Frank Hawk Jewelry, Midland Texas at 432-684-4525 or email shmoranz@clearwire.net.
 

pilkguns

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Shanna sent me some info on this awhile back for some comment. I think its a great setup overall, although it will take a bit of floor space for the setup. They plan on bringing one to demonstrate at the Engrave-In.
 

Ray Cover

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Did she mention anything about price?

I have tried to call and email and I can't seem to connect with her.

Ray
 

pilkguns

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Ray,
this is what was said about price,
quote:
Now to the bottom line :). The standard model as described in the spec sheet will retail for $3950 plus shipping. This package includes one auxillary table built to your specs. Additional tables are priced according to type and size. Any size (almost) is possible. Delivery looks to be about 6 weeks right now - depending upon level of interest and how many orders we might have to build.
 

alFrumpus

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Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Wow, thanks for all the replies, everyone!

1. It seems the Acrobat has supporters. Are there any microscope-using goldsmiths who function well without using the Acrobat stand? I've read that the biggest complaint with microscopes is that the focus has to be adjusted every time a ring/job changes position in the Benchmate. Is this minimized somehow with an Acrobat?

2. When using the Benchmate for, let's say, engraving the OUTSIDE of a ring, can you leave the set-screw loose, to swivel the tube vertically in the mounting collar for curved cuts (like in an engraving block)? And does this gradually collect dust and grit between the tube and the mounting collar?

3. Is there a big advantage to the "Inside Ring Holder" clamp (from the "Benchmate Setters Package") over the standard benchmate clamp? (Our shop makes rings, mostly.)

4. Re: zoom ranges for general goldsmithing? I'll make sure my scope can zoom up to at least 10x or 20x magnification, but do I need anything LESS than 3x power if I plan to look through it 8hours a day?

Thanks again.


For whoever is interested, here are some of the more useful links I found in my "ergonomics" research:

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/positions.html
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/sewing/sewingstationdesign.html
http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/ergonomics.htm
http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/ergo/evaltools/CautionZones2.pdf
http://www.lni.wa.gov/wisha/ergo/evaltools/HazardZoneChecklist.PDF
http://www.aiha.org/Content/Topics/ergonomics/
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dosh/dosh_publications/EasErg2.pdf
 
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