Caty Blom
Elite Cafe Member
Two new sketch, the same form, completed just different. It's about learning to draw, so please specify invites comments to learn from. Thanks, greetings Caty.
Two new sketch.
- Thread starter Caty Blom
- Start date
didyoung
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
caty
the scroll back bones are nice and round. they look good, but your leaves are formed wrong.
the way that your leaves conect to the scroll backbone and the way that they connect to each other is incorrect.
it is very important to attach the stems and leaves correctly and form correctly shaped unions. if it is done right....shading becomes easy.
if it is not done right it is impossible to shade correctly.
I suggest getting Lee Griffiths or Ron Smith books.
study them....learn the correct formation of leaf structure.....once you do this your designs will be flawless.
your drawing looks nice at first glance , but it is incorrect
my drawings are not the best, but they work because I try to stay with the basic rules of leaf structure. there is a big difference between your drawing
and mine.....why?
the scroll back bones are nice and round. they look good, but your leaves are formed wrong.
the way that your leaves conect to the scroll backbone and the way that they connect to each other is incorrect.
it is very important to attach the stems and leaves correctly and form correctly shaped unions. if it is done right....shading becomes easy.
if it is not done right it is impossible to shade correctly.
I suggest getting Lee Griffiths or Ron Smith books.
study them....learn the correct formation of leaf structure.....once you do this your designs will be flawless.
your drawing looks nice at first glance , but it is incorrect
my drawings are not the best, but they work because I try to stay with the basic rules of leaf structure. there is a big difference between your drawing
and mine.....why?
Last edited:
Caty Blom
Elite Cafe Member
Hi Didyoung,
Thanks for your advice, this is the only way out of the books and DVDs to learn, just by showing on this forum. It's nice when criticism is given by others further with the engraving.
My first concern is that the scrolls are correct and then I actually more strokes with my imagination as following the "rules." I've looked at your drawings and leaves are very different, much bigger in scope. Will surely once again as in the book dives Lee Griffit. Have a lot of studying in the united members, but then I drew loose leaf forms, connecting to each of these forms is rather difficult without someone around who can give instructions. But I do not give up and go right back to square one, will ever succeed anyway? greetings Caty.
Thanks for your advice, this is the only way out of the books and DVDs to learn, just by showing on this forum. It's nice when criticism is given by others further with the engraving.
My first concern is that the scrolls are correct and then I actually more strokes with my imagination as following the "rules." I've looked at your drawings and leaves are very different, much bigger in scope. Will surely once again as in the book dives Lee Griffit. Have a lot of studying in the united members, but then I drew loose leaf forms, connecting to each of these forms is rather difficult without someone around who can give instructions. But I do not give up and go right back to square one, will ever succeed anyway? greetings Caty.
Christian DeCamillis
Elite Cafe Member
Actually with the style of scroll Caty has drawn I see no problem with the way the leaves connect to each other nor the way they attach to the backbones. Now it's different but it is similar to some acanthus style scrolls as in the book Bram has here for everyone to download. Are there a lot of things that could be changed and made different , Yes
If we are talking about American scroll then no it wouldn't be correct. I wouldn't have any problem shading them. That being said there are many styles of ornament and the one thing they have in common is nicely shaped backbones with a smooth flow.
Caty I would get the books Shawn recommended and look at as much ornamental scroll you can.
If we are talking about American scroll then no it wouldn't be correct. I wouldn't have any problem shading them. That being said there are many styles of ornament and the one thing they have in common is nicely shaped backbones with a smooth flow.
Caty I would get the books Shawn recommended and look at as much ornamental scroll you can.
Southern Custom
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Shawn's work is a great example although a bit advanced from basic scroll. All lines, leaves are we'll thought out and placed.
Shawn, one thing that always strikes me about your sketches is that there are never any "Clumsy" spots. And you know what I mean with regard to leaf tips and such. I still spend a lot of time erasing clumsiness from my drawing before I can proceed. Your lines are always elegant and flow well. (please tell me there was an eraser involved here and there!) Even in this sketch, you get away with some things that don't follow the rules yet it still flows and works. That's the difference between you and me. You had better know what the heck you are doing if you are going get away breaking the rules.
Caty, take time to learn the rules and Ron's book is a great place to start. Looks to me like you are making a good start of it.
Shawn, one thing that always strikes me about your sketches is that there are never any "Clumsy" spots. And you know what I mean with regard to leaf tips and such. I still spend a lot of time erasing clumsiness from my drawing before I can proceed. Your lines are always elegant and flow well. (please tell me there was an eraser involved here and there!) Even in this sketch, you get away with some things that don't follow the rules yet it still flows and works. That's the difference between you and me. You had better know what the heck you are doing if you are going get away breaking the rules.
Caty, take time to learn the rules and Ron's book is a great place to start. Looks to me like you are making a good start of it.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Caty
I can see where you are trying to go with this but unfortunately it's not quite working.
There are a couple of cheap Dover books I would recommend to you. The first is Florid Victorian Ornament by Karl Klimsch. Here is the link. http://www.doverpictura.com/collection/0486997383
The second is Scroll Ornaments Of the Early Victorian Period by F. Knight. Here is the link http://store.doverpublications.com/0486235963.html (I would highly recommend this book as you will not find anything better for Victorian scroll work and acanthus leaf.
There are also many other Dover books and I would highly recommend them as there is a lot of study material in them and they lean toward what you are trying to do.
If these are unavailable in the Netherlands then you can buy them online or go to the library and find similar books.
Also...read what I have suggested to Willem. The same applies to what you are trying to do. Don't over think it to much and just relax and get all your main lines correct.
You are on the right track..........you just need to refine your drawings a bit more and get a lot better balance within the design.
Cheers
Andrew
I can see where you are trying to go with this but unfortunately it's not quite working.
There are a couple of cheap Dover books I would recommend to you. The first is Florid Victorian Ornament by Karl Klimsch. Here is the link. http://www.doverpictura.com/collection/0486997383
The second is Scroll Ornaments Of the Early Victorian Period by F. Knight. Here is the link http://store.doverpublications.com/0486235963.html (I would highly recommend this book as you will not find anything better for Victorian scroll work and acanthus leaf.
There are also many other Dover books and I would highly recommend them as there is a lot of study material in them and they lean toward what you are trying to do.
If these are unavailable in the Netherlands then you can buy them online or go to the library and find similar books.
Also...read what I have suggested to Willem. The same applies to what you are trying to do. Don't over think it to much and just relax and get all your main lines correct.
You are on the right track..........you just need to refine your drawings a bit more and get a lot better balance within the design.
Cheers
Andrew
Caty Blom
Elite Cafe Member
Hi,
I want to thank all those who have provided me, opinions and comments.
Andrew, the books you recommend I have them all, and I use them to look the designs and shadow lines . Still I have some questions, is it a rule that the leaves always be inside a backbone? Can you use multiple leaf shapes in a design or you must hold one kind? All spaces are filled as in figure 2, or you may also leave open spaces like drawing 1? Keep your mind in the shadows the light, from top left to bottom right, or do you not use it in the engraving? I made a copy of a drawing from the book of Florid Victorian Ornament, where you can clearly see the difference of light.
Christian it is difficult to make a drawing if you do not know exactly what the rules are from the American scroll. I have several DVDs viewed and what I notice is that I'm copying a sheet form or scroll used by others. You never see actually a very design, only particles of leaf shapes and or scrolls, but not quite flood fill with motifs .What I'm trying to get my scrolls in a good flow and further their own design. Is it not true that if there are fixed rules for drawing are similar to each other than many designs created which so signed by different people but always returning to the same form?
I'd like to know,the rules off the American Scrolls so that I can better to concentrate. Now I use at the sample books that Andrew are recommending me and the textbook of Lee Griffiths.
I would like to learn from you all, I like drawing and designing, it is fun to do and would also very much like to apply in jewelry. In the Netherlands we may not have a weapon, so we can not engrave on weapons. But there is enough possibillity for engraving your desing on.
Thank you to all so far and I look forward to the answers to my questions,greetings Caty.
I want to thank all those who have provided me, opinions and comments.
Andrew, the books you recommend I have them all, and I use them to look the designs and shadow lines . Still I have some questions, is it a rule that the leaves always be inside a backbone? Can you use multiple leaf shapes in a design or you must hold one kind? All spaces are filled as in figure 2, or you may also leave open spaces like drawing 1? Keep your mind in the shadows the light, from top left to bottom right, or do you not use it in the engraving? I made a copy of a drawing from the book of Florid Victorian Ornament, where you can clearly see the difference of light.
Christian it is difficult to make a drawing if you do not know exactly what the rules are from the American scroll. I have several DVDs viewed and what I notice is that I'm copying a sheet form or scroll used by others. You never see actually a very design, only particles of leaf shapes and or scrolls, but not quite flood fill with motifs .What I'm trying to get my scrolls in a good flow and further their own design. Is it not true that if there are fixed rules for drawing are similar to each other than many designs created which so signed by different people but always returning to the same form?
I'd like to know,the rules off the American Scrolls so that I can better to concentrate. Now I use at the sample books that Andrew are recommending me and the textbook of Lee Griffiths.
I would like to learn from you all, I like drawing and designing, it is fun to do and would also very much like to apply in jewelry. In the Netherlands we may not have a weapon, so we can not engrave on weapons. But there is enough possibillity for engraving your desing on.
Thank you to all so far and I look forward to the answers to my questions,greetings Caty.
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Caty
I've tried to answer your questions as best I can. The whole subject of design is a big one and the answers are not always exact.
Is it a rule that the leaves always be inside a backbone?…………No, the leaves can be inside and outside a backbone. A well balanced scroll will have both inside and outside leaves.
Can you use multiple leaf shapes in a design or you must hold one kind?………..It is best to try and stick to one style of leaf. But of course the leaves can have many shapes within that style. If you look in the book Scroll Ornaments Of The Early Victorian Period, you will notice that many of the designs use Acanthus leaves as the style. But the leaves vary in shape. Some may fold over or fold under. Some may be seen sideways and others face on. Varying the shape adds interest to the design otherwise it will be boring.
If you start mixing leaf styles (e.g. Acanthus and oak leaves within the same design) then it can start getting messy and unattractive. As a beginner try and keep things simple and as you get better with your designs, then maybe see if you can mix leaf styles.
All spaces are filled as in figure 2, or you may also leave open spaces like drawing 1?…………….You can use both. Designs with a lot of negative space like drawing 1 are generally seen as elegant and classy. Designs that are all filled in like drawing 2 are seen as busy and vibrant. It all depends on what you are trying to convey with your design. But, the same rules apply to both. They must be balanced, in proportion and have good flow.
Keep your mind in the shadows the light, from top left to bottom right, or do you not use it in the engraving? I made a copy of a drawing from the book of Florid Victorian Ornament, where you can clearly see the difference of light……………..Shading can be done several ways. The example that you have posted is a realistic lifelike shadow where the light comes from one direction. It is really effective and realistic. You can also use a stylised shading where it comes from many directions and this is how most scroll is treated. Sometimes you have to use both methods.
Here are a few things to think about.
Balance and proportion……….this is the key to good design. Everything must balance with each other. The scroll, the leaves and all the other elements that make up the design, should be in proportion to each other. If one or two elements dominate the design then your eye keep going to them. These are called focal points and can detract from a good design. If you have a really short man with a very big nose, then you only see the nose and not the rest of him.
Flow…..good design will make your eye move with the design. If you have bad curves or scrolls that aren't formed correctly this disrupts the flow and causes the eye to stop at that point. This is why it is very important to work on all your scroll back bones and main lines first. If an area looks wrong, then it is wrong.
In the beginning, keep things simple. Most people try to do really complex design when they start out (something we are all guilty of).Try to draw one good scroll with good leaves inside and out. Vary the shape of the leaves but keep them in the same style. Acanthus leaves are great because you can just about do anything with them. Once you can do that you can do just about anything.
Practice drawing different leaf shapes so you build up a library of leaves in your head and develop the muscle memory to recreate them on any design.
Don't be afraid to actually copy some of those leaf shapes in the Dover books. That is what they are there for as well as provide inspiration.
Really study good engraving and try to look for the balance, proportion and flow of the designs you see. After a while you will begin to understand why they are so good and apply that to your own work.
You are doing well and after a while, and with plenty of practice you will get good at it. It is clear that you can use pencil and paper. You just need to refine your work and that comes through practice and observation. It isn't easy and can be quite frustrating……… but if you keep at it you will be rewarded with success
Cheers
Andrew
I've tried to answer your questions as best I can. The whole subject of design is a big one and the answers are not always exact.
Is it a rule that the leaves always be inside a backbone?…………No, the leaves can be inside and outside a backbone. A well balanced scroll will have both inside and outside leaves.
Can you use multiple leaf shapes in a design or you must hold one kind?………..It is best to try and stick to one style of leaf. But of course the leaves can have many shapes within that style. If you look in the book Scroll Ornaments Of The Early Victorian Period, you will notice that many of the designs use Acanthus leaves as the style. But the leaves vary in shape. Some may fold over or fold under. Some may be seen sideways and others face on. Varying the shape adds interest to the design otherwise it will be boring.
If you start mixing leaf styles (e.g. Acanthus and oak leaves within the same design) then it can start getting messy and unattractive. As a beginner try and keep things simple and as you get better with your designs, then maybe see if you can mix leaf styles.
All spaces are filled as in figure 2, or you may also leave open spaces like drawing 1?…………….You can use both. Designs with a lot of negative space like drawing 1 are generally seen as elegant and classy. Designs that are all filled in like drawing 2 are seen as busy and vibrant. It all depends on what you are trying to convey with your design. But, the same rules apply to both. They must be balanced, in proportion and have good flow.
Keep your mind in the shadows the light, from top left to bottom right, or do you not use it in the engraving? I made a copy of a drawing from the book of Florid Victorian Ornament, where you can clearly see the difference of light……………..Shading can be done several ways. The example that you have posted is a realistic lifelike shadow where the light comes from one direction. It is really effective and realistic. You can also use a stylised shading where it comes from many directions and this is how most scroll is treated. Sometimes you have to use both methods.
Here are a few things to think about.
Balance and proportion……….this is the key to good design. Everything must balance with each other. The scroll, the leaves and all the other elements that make up the design, should be in proportion to each other. If one or two elements dominate the design then your eye keep going to them. These are called focal points and can detract from a good design. If you have a really short man with a very big nose, then you only see the nose and not the rest of him.
Flow…..good design will make your eye move with the design. If you have bad curves or scrolls that aren't formed correctly this disrupts the flow and causes the eye to stop at that point. This is why it is very important to work on all your scroll back bones and main lines first. If an area looks wrong, then it is wrong.
In the beginning, keep things simple. Most people try to do really complex design when they start out (something we are all guilty of).Try to draw one good scroll with good leaves inside and out. Vary the shape of the leaves but keep them in the same style. Acanthus leaves are great because you can just about do anything with them. Once you can do that you can do just about anything.
Practice drawing different leaf shapes so you build up a library of leaves in your head and develop the muscle memory to recreate them on any design.
Don't be afraid to actually copy some of those leaf shapes in the Dover books. That is what they are there for as well as provide inspiration.
Really study good engraving and try to look for the balance, proportion and flow of the designs you see. After a while you will begin to understand why they are so good and apply that to your own work.
You are doing well and after a while, and with plenty of practice you will get good at it. It is clear that you can use pencil and paper. You just need to refine your work and that comes through practice and observation. It isn't easy and can be quite frustrating……… but if you keep at it you will be rewarded with success
Cheers
Andrew
Last edited:
Caty Blom
Elite Cafe Member
Hi Andrew,
I'm so happy with your comment, there where several questions that I need a answer for to go forward with my drawings, now I understand better what to do. But still it is very difficult, also because their are so many different opinion about the way you can design. Some times it is fustrating me, but than the other day I look to my work and see that it is not in ballance, but on that moment I have no idee how to change it.
What I learned is that I after finish my work it leave on the table for a couple of days and then look to it with a new face, most of the time you see a better solution for the problem. Thats is what I do with Willem and Hora, we give each other idee about our drawings and try to encourage each other to go forward with trying en repeating.
Thanks for your explanations and I go further with give it a try, greetings Caty.
I'm so happy with your comment, there where several questions that I need a answer for to go forward with my drawings, now I understand better what to do. But still it is very difficult, also because their are so many different opinion about the way you can design. Some times it is fustrating me, but than the other day I look to my work and see that it is not in ballance, but on that moment I have no idee how to change it.
What I learned is that I after finish my work it leave on the table for a couple of days and then look to it with a new face, most of the time you see a better solution for the problem. Thats is what I do with Willem and Hora, we give each other idee about our drawings and try to encourage each other to go forward with trying en repeating.
Thanks for your explanations and I go further with give it a try, greetings Caty.
Willem Parel
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Thank you very much Andrew for taking your time for such a extensive explanation, this is a great help for us.
The only thing now is I have to get rid of the picture of a little man with a huge nose....
The only thing now is I have to get rid of the picture of a little man with a huge nose....
Andrew Biggs
Moderator
Hi Caty and Willem
No worries.
Yes, it is very frustrating at the beginning...and it can still be frustrating a few years later.
Just keep at it and you'll be fine.
Cheers
Andrew
No worries.
Yes, it is very frustrating at the beginning...and it can still be frustrating a few years later.
Just keep at it and you'll be fine.
Cheers
Andrew
The different leaf styles on the same backbone question is pretty easy to understand. If you have a plant in nature with different shaped leaves, you would be confused. It was either grafted or it is being attacked by a parasite.
Caty Blom
Elite Cafe Member
Hi Beathard,
Thanks for your reply, I understand what you mean.
It is not intended to draw different leaf shapes at the same scroll but in a composite sketch you could use different leafs, without detract from the whole. Different leaf shapes to different scrolls That was my question, but if you look at nature you will see still unfolding leaves and leaves entirely open, so therefore you can also play. Not all leaves at the same time at full bloom. Greetings Caty.
Thanks for your reply, I understand what you mean.
It is not intended to draw different leaf shapes at the same scroll but in a composite sketch you could use different leafs, without detract from the whole. Different leaf shapes to different scrolls That was my question, but if you look at nature you will see still unfolding leaves and leaves entirely open, so therefore you can also play. Not all leaves at the same time at full bloom. Greetings Caty.
Last edited:
Willem Parel
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Caty, I think it's about time to get rid of all that weed in your garden......:beatup:
Sponsors
