Question: This is a question on VAT to the Belgium engravers in particular.

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

In Belgium the general BTW, TVA VAT (taxes) on everything are 21%. For non Belgium readers here, it is the extra taxes you pay when buying something.

But there are exceptions, for Art it is only 6%. So if you buy a original Artwork there is 6% VAT. If it is a reproduction the VAT will be 21%

There is a list (half A4 page) of all the exceptions.
One is photos, also paintings,original etchings and original engravings.

My accountant, specialized in Diamond & Jewel trading don’t know if I’m allowed to use the 6% VAT when I do engraving.

So my question to the Belgium engravers, is it correct that you only have to include 6% VAT in the price for the customers when engraving on their gun, knife or ring?

The second question is, those who only do engraving, do they have a status as "Artist"? Whithout a VAT number.

Arnaud

 

[Gemsetterchris]

Interesting problem Arnaud, maybe a phone call or search your government website.
Here in Finland, everyone self employed has a vat number (good to buy tools ect elsewhere in EU to avoid having to pay extra)
The general rate is 24%.
Maybe your canvas be 21% but the engraving work 6%
Maybe It's a different story for new work as opposed to antiques.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Chris, my accountant will cal the authorities, government or whatever, I pay him to do these kind of things.
Of course I too have a vat number, and like you say I recover the taxes I pay when buying tools, materials etc..

Now if I engrave by hand a golden or even a silver jewel, there could be two VAT%, 21% on the jewel and 6% on the time spent to engrave.

When I started 30 years ago, we had 25%VAT and an extra 6% luxury tax. A golden ring without a diamond in it we had to use the 25% vat when selling it, also for a loose stone it was 25%. And if after that the customer asked to set his stone in his ring he just bought, we only had to charge 25% VAT on setting the stone.
Now for small diamonds this didn't matter much, but a 6% on a 3 carat LC stone sure makes a lot of money.

Now in my case, and probably the authorities in Belgium never had to deal with this, I do hand engraving on Titanium. An engraved bracelet that I want to sell for 3000 euro, most of its value is only the engraving, the Titanium itself is even less than 0.5% of the price.
I could sell the bracelet without engraving for 5 euro with 21% VAT inclusive and then engrave it for 2995 euro, 6% VAT inclusive.

And I know you can call the TAXES men and ask them, but thing is it isn't that common, probably I would be the first to ask.

But **** and ****** ******** they should know. And yes they do gold inlay, probably at 6% VAT.

It gets even worse in my case when it comes to stockpile. This is what you have in your shop to sell. You can buy it or in my case, I make it. So I have some of my Ti engraved bracelets in that stockpile, but most of its value is work, my work.
And If I would quit and stop my shop, would I have to pay 21% VAT on the total value of the stockpile?

Of course this are questions my accountant should be able to answer, but it seems I'm a misfit.

arnaud

 

[silverchip]

Who is in charge of calling work "ORIGINAL ART"?? If you draw a design for a piece that is art ,no?? So IF you include that in the sale of that piece , That would make it original art?? Sounds like it ought to fly to me,

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Dave, of course any drawing is original art so to say. And same for photos, in Belgium the author always even when died, is the owner of the original copyright, so it is logical it is the same for design, no matter paint, pencil, engraving or etching and no matter the canvas it is on.

But this ain't a search on what is logical.

arnaud

 

[Eugene Carkoski]

If it is anything like it is here in the states, you could ask 10 different tax people and get 10 different answers. Lots of luck on that one.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

You can bet your bottom dollar Arnaud that what the tax authorities will say they mean is "Fine" and "Conceptual" Art. What we do is considered "applied" or "decorative" art and isn't even considered "Art" by the art world. Heaven knows why not as what we do not only includes incredible skill and manual dexterity but also often takes part of our soul into what we produce. This isn't good enough for the "Art" world though is seems. Unless we can intellectualise or somehow get our engravings to make some sort of 'statement' it seems we are not considered to be 'artists' but instead, craftsmen/women.

There was a fantastic tv programme on the BBC last week. It was all about the development of wall paper in Britain. Near the end of the programme there was a lovely lady who produces the most fantastic hand printed wall paper which is made from her own, lino cut, designs. They were absolutely stunning and I'd have them in my house any day. I really would consider what she does as 'art' but sadly, the reality is that it isn't considered so by the establishment; again, it's considered to be decoration and not art.

One day I'm sure the art world might look upon us as 'artists' but to be honest, when I see most of the crap they try to palm off as 'art' (mainly because they are lacking a lot of skills in my view) I'm proud to say I'm a "craftsman" and not an artist!!!

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Marcus for your input on this. For sure not all European countries follow the same rules. You probably remember the tread I started time ago on Art or Craftsmanship.
I agree that engraving or etching when done by hand and even if it is decoration, is Art but what I believe doesn't matter for the tax men of course.
My accountant he has all the books with the laws on that, and they change quite often too. But as I said, I'm a kind of misfit the way that what I do isn't common. That is why I can't have an insurance against thieves. If ever a thieve would steal an engraved bracelet I spent over a week work on, the insurance would only pay for the Ti, not the work. So I have no insurance to deal with and I prefer that, no problem.

My question here is only: A professional engraver, how much VAT% does he/she have to include in the price for a customer?
Is it the common VAT% for engraving only like on jewelery, cars IT equipment, TV and so on, or is there a lower VAT% for that.
My oldest son is a Belgium professional photographer, and when he prints his photos in an album, there is only 6% VAT. That because in Belgium, photos are considered as Art and so the law says: 6% VAT.
Not my son invented this, that is known by all professional photographers here in Belgium, and it is written in a book. That same book has a list of who for what should deal with that lower VAT% and it says also engraving and etching.

Of course the text isn't that precisely, so you could interpreted it as the etching and engraving should be printed, and that those printings are Art at 6%VAT. But I just wan to know for sure. My accountant is working on that but he asked me to find out too by asking a professional Belgium engraver or someone who is at the Belgium engraving school at Liege.

But it seems to be a taboo for some, even talking about VAT. So I still don't know how much VAT one should deal with in Belgium for engraving only.

So I probably will have to talk someone on the phone or sent an email. It is a simple question I have, no need to discuss the law, just knowing how to interpret the law.

arnaud

 

[capece rocco]

I'm an belgian engraver the TVA for the belgian customer is 21%
no tax for the customer out of Belgium
before the TVA was 33% because engraving consedering (luxe)
bye Rocco

 

[Alain Lovenberg]

Arnaud,

you must apply 21% VAT in Belgium. As Marcus said it , the work we do is not considered as "Art" , just decorative art.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Thank you Alain for taking the time to clear this out for me.
Probably the interpretation in the TAX book is that the engraving has to be printed to be considered as Art at 6%VAT.
Anyway, I will try to discuss this with the Belgium VAT authorities, and if I can have it printed and signed by them differently, I will let you know.

Rocco, thanks for clearing it out, yes I started the period there was 33% VAT.

arnaud

 

[rayf24]

Doesn't seem to matter which country one lives in the TAX MAN will always want his pound of flesh and some, If he cant get it out the front door he will just use the backdoor and the smaller your business the more they want much like a well known "e" site for buying and selling, you PAY to list / PAY when it sold / and you PAY when you get PAID like a taxman cant lose !!!
Ray