Thanks

[scott99]

Hi I read recently that there is not enough feed back to people who give assistance to on the Forum.

I hope I have not been guilty of this but want to make sure everybody that has helped me gets a giant THANKYOU !!!:clapping: :clapping: :bow:

Without the help freely given on this Forum I would be whacking at engraving with a rock, So know your help is needed and greatfully appreciated.

Thanks again
scott99

 

[golden forge]

Well said Scott99,
And I'll second that, without the help shared here I think many of us newer and still learning engravers would have given up from frustration by now.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

I agree that Scott,

arnaud

 

[glstrcowboy]

I second (third?) that. I suspect that the people who are most qualified to give advise are self employed. For them to take time out of their day (and therefore give up income) to help guide the Padawan Learners is certainly to say Thank You! for.

 

[Sam]

Taking a moment to type a nice thank-you (and I don't mean clicking the LIKE button!) to someone who has taken their time to give help and advice is always a good thing. Fairly often we get a new member that's excited about learning hand engraving who asks for advice, gets it, and then disappears, changes his/her mind about learning, or lacks the common courtesy to say thanks. Generally it's the ones who are not serious about the craft. The serious students of engraving are grateful for the help they receive.

 

[Willem Parel]

Sam, I clicked the like button while I like your post because the honnesty and true words but I want to thank you especialy for your effords and your kindness to share your skills and experience with all of us, even to all those who disappeare and then still you´ll be there the next time.
Also I want to thank all members who are participating, from who I learn a lot.
Willem

 

[Sam]

No problem Willem. I mention the LIKE button because I feel that sometimes it's used instead of typing a response. That's not always a bad thing, but I feel when someone goes to the trouble to type something helpful, the least the recipient should do is type something back.

As in Cafe interviews...the person being interviewed has spent considerable time typing answers to questions, and then members just click the LIKE button instead of typing THANK YOU to him. That's also why I got rid of the THANKS button.

 

[Willem Parel]

I agree with all of your words Sam, and I admitt that sometimes I don´t realise the impact and just click the ¨like¨ button (because I do appreciate the post) and not realise I have to letting know the person who helps me in person the help he/ she gives me is most appreciated.

Thank you VERY much...

 

[mitch]

Thank you for bringing this up, Scott, and for your comments as well, Sam. From time to time I have contacted people thru PM or email and gently offered a private critique, usually on one of the finer points I think they need help with. I've done before & after sketches, etc. (which take time, because I do not have computer graphic capabilities, which means drawing with pencil, photographing/scanning images, loading into email...)- kind of a mini tutorial. While my assistance is always graciously accepted in the spirit in which it is proffered, it seldom results in any public acknowledgement. A couple guys have been good about that, but a few others...not so much. I don't do it for the accolades, but at the same time it rankles a tiny bit when I've gone out of my way to help somebody, then they post new pics of their work and soak up the ensuing 'atta-boys!' without bothering to say, "Well, Mitch helped me a bit on that..."

On a semi-related note, some folks post what seems to be every sketch and piece of work they do, then wonder why helpful feedback has become scarce. #1- your work may no longer be evolving and/or improving at a rate that warrants comment. In other words, at this point you need to practice what you already know and it's not going to show much difference from one day or week to the next. You can learn 90+% of engraving in 6 months, but most of the remaining 10% could easily take 6 yrs. #2- Posting too much makes me and others tune you out. If you really want help, you'll have to be more restrained and selective about what and how often you post. If your real intention is just using/abusing this forum for business exposure, the polite thing would be to buy some ad space from Sam. Otherwise, as a colleague put it the other day in a phone conversation, "This is a professional website, not your parents' refrigerator."

my $0.02

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Mitch, I feel you point on me about showing a lot of what I do. Do I show too much and too much of the same? Perhaps I do.
One excuse I have, I don't use that much space of Sam's refrigerator as my photos are hosted on my server.
If it comes to ask for critique, I rarely do because I still can critique on my own work.
Neither am I after 'atta boys'

The only reason I'm that an active member is because I have a story to tell, might be different than the best High End engravers work that is shown, but I try to encourage lower skilled engravers like me.
I think every active member, no matter his engraving skills, can help another. If you think it is up only to High skilled teachers, let me know your point of view.
If you prefer that when I show what I'm working on should be open for critique, let me know.

Anyway I wasn't aware that I was doing something that could frustrate, sorry If I did.

arnaud

 

[Big-Un]

As a "journeyman" engraver lacking the skills of the master engravers here (professional engravers), I sometime hesitate to post my work, not because I'm ashamed of it, but because it doesn't have the artistry and professionalism posted by those professionals. I love to see their work, as I'm inspired by what can be accomplished. As for the newbies posting their work, I can see where I was in my beginnings and understand their intentions (at least most of them) in that they are looking for direction. Unfortunately, a lot of the newer engravers are trying to get to a higher level the easy way, and it "ain't gonna happen!" Extensive time must be spent learning what can be done at a certain level before progressing to the next level. Should I desire to progress to my next level of expertise, time must be invested, not just a few hours per week, but several hours per day, every day, like I did in the beginning. After a couple years of that my "style" became evident, as witnessed by my wife, who knows nothing of engraving per se, would see a piece and declare it as being "me." My work is readily accepted by my clientele and I get plenty of work without trying. As an example, I recently completed a Colt Commander .45 ACP and have received three commissions from it. I'm not bragging, just stating a fact; once you have your niche you will not be without work. For the newer engravers reading this, bear in mind I have been engraving off and on for almost thirty years, and if you wish to see what dedication, coupled with skill can accomplish, see Brian Hochstat's work. He and I were in Rex Pedersen's GRS class five or six years ago. He was new to engraving then and I had been cutting for almost twenty years. Brian's dedication has propelled him to what I consider the elite category of engravers while I remain a journeyman. He made a decision to be a Master Engraver and I made my decision to be as good an engraver as I could within the bounds decided by my ambitions at that time of my life.
So, to wrap up a long winded reply, I hope everyone continues to post their work, no matter the motivation. I get something out of every posted picture and the resulting comments. Don't take constructive criticism poorly, you are getting top notch advice freely, and for some of us intent on being harsh with your comments, try and temper them with compassion. We're all trying to improve, and when I see mean spirited comments, I immediately think they are either jealous of someone's endeavors or are trying to make themselves look superior, which is usually a sign of low self esteem or an inferiority complex showing it's mean side.
As always, comments are welcomed.
Bill

 

[Haraga.com]

Mitch, you nailed it! Arnaud I could be wrong but I don't think he was talking about you.

 

[Southern Custom]

Arnaud,
I think this forum works because of guys like you, not in spite of guys like you. Without the assistance of folks like you and all the other members who have offered assistance both privately and publicly, I"d still be hacking away like I did for 15 years. I've learned more in the last 2 years than I did in all the previous years. You get out of this thing what you put into it.
When I first joined awhile back, I would rarely sit down to type anything of note. I did however absorb as much as I could. Looking back I should have posted more of my failures for critique. Might have helped the process along. I've now reached a point where I feel I sorta know what I'm doing and can offer help to those who were in my situation only recently. I think that's how this thing is supposed to work. Assist those who know less than you and learn from those who know more. It's a fairly simple and wonderful idea.
So to Arnaud, Mitch, Sam, other Sam, Shawn, Marcus, J.J., Barry, and so many others I can't remember at the moment, Thanks to you all if I haven't said it before now. You have all helped me become the engraver I am today whether directly or indirectly. I hope I can do the same for someone else.
Layne Z.

 

[Sam]

Arnaud, your posts are excellent and the information is of high value. I appreciate you taking the time to share your techniques and post photos with good explanations. I also appreciate and respect your ever-evolving skills as a jeweler and engraver.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Layne to quote you “Assist those who know less than you and learn from those who know more. It's a fairly simple and wonderful idea.”
That is exactly how I feel about it, thanks for writing it down even more to the point.

Sam, over the years being an active member in the Café, I said it several times and I say it again:
It is thanks to this forum where I started a engraver carreer and the efforts of members willing to teach that it was possible for me to call myself a professional engraver now. Thanks all of you!

Of course I have a lot to learn, live will be too short. But isn’t that what we all do?
I use Layne’s words which are great to illustrate why and what I do here in the Café: “Assist those who know less than you and learn from those who know more”

I could be wrong while reading Mitch’s reply so I hope he can clear this out.

arnaud

 

[mitch]

rest assured, Arnaud, your posts are always welcome. not only do you share an interesting variety of different techniques, materials (love the titanium rings!), etc., i never get the impression you're fishing for empty compliments, constant instruction, or excessive self-promotion.

my main point was to reiterate, once again, what has been said here many times: Most of you who are still on the steep part of the learning curve just need more PRACTICE, you don't need more instruction, online or elsewhere. Have someone you trust review your progress from time to time (here on the Cafe or privately) to make sure you haven't picked up any bad habits- mechanically or stylistically- and keep after it. you will occasionally benefit from a class/book/dvd* to help get off the inevitable plateaus and learn new techniques or styles (i.e. Marcus Hunt's fine scroll), but hand engraving requires, more so than virtually any discipline you care to name, practice, practice, practice. there are no shortcuts. there are no substitutes.

*spending a few bucks now & then is also a good way to support the guys & gals who've gone to the trouble of creating instructional materials, rather than just expecting to always get it for free online. just a suggestion that will help keep the information flowing when you need it.

 

[Sam]

Excellent points, Mitch. Especially on practice.

I'd like to add one other thing, which is you have to really want this if you wish to truly excel. Those engravers we all admire and respect are men and women who eat, sleep, live, and breathe hand engraving. Most are consumed with it to the point of obsession and have practiced untold thousands of hours.

The casual engraver who enjoys a number of hobbies or interests is a different story. He/she may be happy to engrave some pretty things without devoting their life to it. There are lots of people in this category.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Mitch, we have a Dutch adage that says, " who fit in the shoe, wears it " so that what I was reading and by reading more that shoe seemed to fit me.

So sorry thinking you where pointing on me Mike and I understand what you are talking about.

arnaud