Critique Request sketch

[Willem Parel]

In cooperation with Caty this is the sketch I made.
So please start shooting on what's wrong and letting me know what is good will be much appreciated.
Willem

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

My two cents Willem, first impression: Chaos.
The left starting scroll is a big one and on the right you have thin ones, so out of balance I would say.
So overall it is too complicated to please my eyes, but hey... just my impression.
I think most will agree about being out of balance.

arnaud

 

[phil]

Hi Willem. There seems too much inconsistency in leaf sizes and background sizes. In your design there are some huge leaves which completely overpower the small ones. Aim for a more consistent size of leaf AND background space throughout the design. Look at the leaf on the left side of your design. It is enormous compared to what you have over on the right. It is all too easy to get lost in trying to achieve what some of the guys on here do with (what looks like) ease. I have tried and wasted too much time trying too much too soon. I can't remember the engraver who uses this as a motto, but when I saw it I adopted it myself. KISS was his motto. It stands for keep it simple stupid. I try and remember this at all times cos as I say, it is all too easy to get lost trying to do complex designs. A simple design that is well thought out and technically correct but possibly not cut too cleanly, will be far more beautiful than an very complex, but technically incorrect design that is cut super clean. I hope this helps.
PS. You have some beautiful leaf shapes in there.... the teardrops are nice too. Well done at getting this far. Have great weekends everyone.

 

[thughes]

Willem, I am far from any judge, but I would have to agree with Arnaud. I like you overall concept, but you've got thick scrolls and thin scrolls, huge leaves and little leaves all mixed up together. Big open spaces and tiny ones. But your basic deign is really nice and I think could look great with a little tweaking.

 

[phil]

Pps. That scroll on the right I what I am referring to. Its a beauty as regards leaf to background proportions and that lovely tumbling/whirling effect that gives movement and flow. However be careful to leave a clearly defined backbone. See how your shade lines have touched the main spiral cut. I don't like that. The backbone should look uniform all the way around the spiral, not being interrupted as that is.

 

[Caty Blom]

Hi Willem,
I do not have to give comment, because we did it by personal post. I posted my sketches too , so the engarvers on this forum can see that we are working together at the same outline. We like to learn from each other, but more from de comments from this forum. Greetings Caty.

 

[Southern Custom]

Yes that large scroll in the center starts with a tiny stem coming from a larger leafy section. Backbones are one of the most important things to pay attention to. I saw it written somewhere that if all the backbones are placed correctly, they would stand on their own as an engraving. When the shading starts to randomly intrude onto the backbone, things get cluttered quickly. I also agree that there is too much going on regarding leaf type and shape and placement. I made this same mistake myself when I finally learned how to draw various leaves correctly.

 

[didyoung]

will
the red dots are lines that do not follow the flow of the leaf.
if you where to continue to draw them in the direction that you have them at right now they would end up in outer space.
they need to run parallel
to the line above them.

 

[Southern Custom]

If I could give one piece of advice upon looking at this, it would be to draw out a design with all your backbones placed correctly and then try and fill in the whole thing using no more than 2 or 3 simple leaf elements. Once you can do that perfectly clean, then add a fold or two the next time. There is a lot going on here.
I've seen some really beautiful designs that only used a few simple scroll elements. If you can find it, I'm looking at the cover of The Engraver, Issue 70, April-May-June. It's a Ruger #1 with scrollwork by Sam Welch and game scenes by Lee Griffiths. If you look closely there are only 2 basic leaf shapes with no fold overs placed on strong backbones. To me it has always been a bold piece of work and one I look back to often when I'm getting to complex. If you can't find it, I could email you a photo.
Layne

 

[Willem Parel]

Sorry about my late reaction, have been busy yesterday building an shed.
And a big thank you for all of you, taking your time to advise me.
And let me tell you it is all a surprisingly and very ramarkable advise, one by one.
I will tell you how I did come to this drawing, the last weeks I have looked into many books and have studyed many pictures on the internet.
All the nice elements I saw there I tryed to remember to use it in future, so I grabbed a little here and picked a little there and put many of those borrowed elements into this drawing.
I myself must still have certain kind of blindness because I didn't recognize the inconsistancy of this drawing ( will this blindness ever pass?)
Now that I read all your comments and advizes I do recognize the ( here and there) big mistakes but before I placed it here it looks to me as an pretty nice scroll drawing.
I think I have to reread Ron Smith's book once more.
And I do understand all your advises ( and they are right) but the advice of Shawn is a bit to difficult for me to understand.
Please Shawn, can you draw me two leaves where you explane a bit more what you mean by " lines that not following the flow of leave" and " they need to run parallel to the line above them" I wasn't aware of those " laws" and I don't understand them.

Well this drawing learned me a lot already ( you learn most of your mistakes) first that I still have a lot of work and reading to do and second that you all are excellent advisers who don't tell fairy tales but true stories, I just proved that with my composed drawing with borrowed elements.
Thank you again for taking your time.
Willem

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Willem, to answer one of your questions about what Shawn is pointing on, the parallel curves, I did add in green the corrections. I made them a bit longer and that isn't necessary but illustrates it better

if more questions, just ask, perhaps Shawn can illustrate it better if you don't understand.

The other thing you are missing, if the leaves are pointing to the right direction they help and support the flow of your design. If they point the wrong way, they block the nice flow of the scrolls

So it is nicer when everything is going with the flow

 

[Caty Blom]

Hi Swan,
I agree with William, you do have a number of points indicated and Arnaud has tried to put some lines to make it clear but I'm struggling with exactly what your intention is. It would be clearer if there is anything you would draw lines, what is the purpose of the walk along the top line. In We study together and it is for us allenbei important to understand your explanation, I would be very grateful for that, greetings Caty.

 

[Southern Custom]

Here is a quick sketch of what Arnaud and I'm pretty sure Shawn were talking about. All lines should flow from your backbone. Avoid right angles. They don't exist much in nature. If you follow the dotted lines you see that the leaf lines would flow back with the backbone if done correctly. They cross it if not.
This is another one of those simple but often overlooked things that separate good engraving from bad. you have to concentrate on it in your sketches till it comes naturally. I still go back and redraw to fix spots like this. (and pardon my poorly done sketches.)ATTACH=CONFIG]26093[/ATTACH]

 

[Willem Parel]

Aahhh Arnaud and Layne, now I start to see what Shawn means and what I did wrong at that point (beside the others....)
Thank you both for the efforts to make this clear to me, I will think of that in my next drawing.
I also I will remeWmber the KISS rule Phil was refering to( I thought it was Lee Griffith who said this but I am not sure) and bit by bit it has to give a little improvement in my drawings I hope, I will keep them posting.

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Layne, your sketch illustrates it well. I think no matter how many times this is explained, and sure it was explained to me too, you only understand what you see when you are ready for it.
When Willem and Caty look at the design they made, and they did add shading lines, by doing that they might have problems where the shading lines would point at, as some shading lines do follow the wrong curve. As the leaves grow on the backbone, they are connected too the stem and grow all in the same direction. To make it even more complex, the leaves when you draw them, they can come from the side of the stem, they also can com from the back of the stem.
Leaves do not have straight lines, only curved ones like everything in nature.

If you look at plants in nature, the a leave will start growing on the stem and as they grow bigger they will grow at the base (stem) and the end of the leave will be not that narrow. Now as we draw stylistic leaves, we can draw them front view, from the side from top etc. But never will a leave grow downwards.

It is very simple once you understand, you don't understand why you didn't see that in the first place.

arnaud

 

[Willem Parel]

It is very simple once you understand, you don't understand why you didn't see that in the first place.arnaud

I would be very happy reaching that point Arnaud....

 

[Arnaud Van Tilburgh]

Carving and cutting Acanthus is done over 2000 years by human. So believe me it is just in your DNA, you just have to let it out of there

arnaud

 

[Caty Blom]

Thank you for the explanation, I will print the drawing and in my next sketch lay beside him myself always to remind how. Greetings Caty.