Looking for watch dial information...

[old_thyme]

Hi!

So I'm not an engraver - my passion is watchmaking.
But a conundrum just came up and I'm hoping for some help (my usual watch forums produced nothing!)

I recently bought a WW2 wrist watch, that was almost certainly a hand-made conversion of a pocket-watch movement.
The photo of the watch I used to make the purchase, showed yellow/gold printing on a black background.




However, when I dismantled the watch, I found something completely different.
It appears the original brass blank was enameled in black, and then the details were engraved, with the brass shining through.
It looks incredible!

My questions are:
Have you seen this before? (I've seen engraved watch faces filled in with coloured enamel)
How was it done? By hand, photolithography, or some kind of a jig?
How can I recreate this?

Thank you engraving community!
Here is a photo of just the dial....

 

[Leonardo]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

It appears to me that it is machined with a ball nose cutter. Well I am almost sure of that!
It is more evident in the cross path in the number 8.
Also, the numbers 2 have no any difference between them. Same with the numbers 1.

Just my two cents!

 

[monk]

i agree with leonardo. you can also see it in the # 4 & 6 using a good magnifier. the tiny dimple is where the tool either started or stopped.

 

[Sinterklaas]

Are you sure it is enameled? Because enameling and then cutting it away sounds like trouble. The enamel is very hard, it is like glass. So any burr's/cutters would dull very fast. And there is also a real risk of the enamel chipping.

Also the last picture hasn't got that shiny enamel look. Maybe it is some paint or ink. Maybe done by hand or by pad printing.

To recreate I would use black paint or maybe oxidize the brass. If that would get it black enough. Then laser engrave the paint away. If that doesnt work then try cnc milling the numbers.

Or maybe you can make a stencil of the numbers. And paste it on the dial. Then paint dial. Then remove stencils, revealing the brass underneath.

Or for large volume of dials use pad printing to print the black on to the dial. The numbers would then also be brass.

You can also make a dial and have the numbers higher than the background. Then paint the background and sand away the excess paint to reveal the higher laying numbers.

 

[monk]

Are you sure it is enameled? Because enameling and then cutting it away sounds like trouble. The enamel is very hard, it is like glass. So any burr's/cutters would dull very fast. And there is also a real risk of the enamel chipping.

Also the last picture hasn't got that shiny enamel look. Maybe it is some paint or ink. Maybe done by hand or by pad printing.

To recreate I would use black paint or maybe oxidize the brass. If that would get it black enough. Then laser engrave the paint away. If that doesnt work then try cnc milling the numbers.

Or maybe you can make a stencil of the numbers. And paste it on the dial. Then paint dial. Then remove stencils, revealing the brass underneath.

Or for large volume of dials use pad printing to print the black on to the dial. The numbers would then also be brass.

You can also make a dial and have the numbers higher than the background. Then paint the background and sand away the excess paint to reveal the higher laying numbers.

i'm not sure why, but many people refer to paint as "enamel". like you, i think of enamel as powdered glass heat-fused onto a metal substrate.

 

[tolesh]

you can use a solution to blacken brass. jewelry supply store will have it

 

[old_thyme]

This has all been amazing helpful!

I apologise for this probably being a stupid newb question - but what kind of rig would they have used in the 1940's to get such accuracy?

And regarding enamel - I am not sure it is enamel.
In fact, a number of people in a watch forum have also said that enamel can be brittle.
My sense is that it is painted on, not blackend metal. (did they have powder coating in those days?)

But I am looking to recreate it, and blackening the brass seems like a potentially splendid route. (if it indeed gets in completely black) followed by laser etching.

Again - thank you all for being so welcoming, and helpful and I'll keep you posted on the project.

 

[Leonardo]

New Hermes started their business in the USA in 1938 producing small engraving machines (pantograph) but also there were other companies there making bigger machines.
These kind of machines existed in Europe even many years before that.
Your watch dial was made of brass or bronze, painted in black and then mechanized with some of these machines.
Actualy, these machines can do all the work. I mean, with the material previously painted, you can do all the marking, the central hole for the hands axes and then cut the external circumference and you are done.

Here is a link to the New Hermes history:

The Incredible New Hermes Story Part One

www.engraversjournal.com

Hope this help a bit more...