Gold inlay, help wanted

[Tom Curran]

Good morning, everyone. I want to pare the gold off nearly flush, but have had trouble with the gravers sticking to the gold, tearing the surface. So I end filing off the gold, which I KNOW is losing a bunch of gold as filings.

What does one use to cut gold smoothly? Any help appreciated.

the gold is 24 K.

Barrel material? maybe 12L14?


thanks, Tom

 

[fegarex]

Lot's of different methods to do this. Mine might not be the best but works for me. I use a copper scraper to remove the gold. I soldiered a penny to a brass rod/handle and scrape the excess off first. I think this came from Sam years ago where he learned from Lynton. The nice thing about this is it will let you get "rough" with the inlay you can be sure the gold is going to stay put. Than I use stones and or sandpaper after that. I have tried a well polished flat with the edges knocked off but I always seem to nick the base metal. It also looks like you have a bit too much gold in the inlay. Either go deeper or use a smaller diameter wire. It just makes life easier. Trying to reclaim ultra fine shavings of gold may not be worth the cost when it comes to inlays. I think if you are jeweler dealing in gold all day long it may make a difference.

 

[Tom Curran]

Thanks, Rex for the tips. The size of wire for the groove is not something I have a lot of experience yet, judging how much wire for the groove. Hopefully that will come with practice.

I will try that copper scraper.

thanks again.
Tom

 

[fegarex]

Judging wire size is still tough for me. You just have to try it and see. If too small or large, you resize as needed.
The nice thing on the scraper is the cost 1 cent plus a handle!! People have asked and I don't think it matters if you use a modern penny either. They seem to work as well even though they aren't copper.

 

[joseph engraver]

Tom, this may sound a bit wild and requires a good touch. When I was engraving flat barrel surfaces on old Winchesters I used a carpenter’s chisel wider than the surface of the flat I had inlaid. It has to be sharpened perfectly true and needs a small amount of lift (10 degrees) to keep it from digging in to the steel, “this is extremely important!â€￾ It also needs to have a micro finish on both top and bottom cutting edges other wise it will tear the gold out if the inlay is not seated well. Using this method I could save 80% of the surplus gold and cut the working time down to a bare minimum. I have also used this method on flush gold figures and on large flat surfaces. In this case you need to round the corners of the chisel a bit so they don’t dig into the steel. It is a bit intimidating to try but it will save you hours of work. This gun was done using in this manner.

 

[FANCYGUN]

That's not a bad idea Joseph. A wide flat wood chisel. I assume you stroke it bevel up and use the flat side as a guide flat on the barrel.

 

[Marcus Hunt]

I often use a triangular etcher's scraper to the same initial effect as Joseph. This means you can save quite a bit of excess gold and, over the years, this can be a considerable amount. I once collected over an ounce of scrap over a 6-7 year period. My sister (who was also an engraver at the time) was amazed. I asked her what she did with her scrap? "Oh, I don't bother with it," was her reply. Duh?!?! Now gold is over $900/oz it's certainly worth bothering with!

As I've said on previous threads, I then use Water of Ayre stone (aka; Tam O'Shanter Hone). This stone is used wet, with water, and has the unique advantage of cutting down all metals at the same rate. That means you don't get dips in the softer gold as the steel is removed at an equal rate. Like Rex, I don't bother collecting the tiny shavings made by the stone.

If you then burnish in between stonings it will help fill any small spaces that might appear. If the gold lifts as you are burnishing then your undercutting isn't right and it's as well to find this out at this stage, and remedy it, than when your gun is finished!

Water of Ayre stone should be available through any good jeweller's tool supplier. As a last resort you can get it through Sutton's Tools in Birmingham, England. I'm sure they'd be only too happy to export to the USA.

 

[Tom Curran]

Thank you, everyone. I will have a lot of gold to shave this weekend. I will also try using a smaller wire, as I am ending up with too much standing proud.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Marcus, brilliant suggestion on the burnishing after shaving. If the gold lifts anywhere during the shave, I'll be better off finding out now.

Thanks again, everyone. Your advice is much appreciated. You know, this is a bit like a university for engraving. Look at all the talented students and teachers we have here. The combined talent and imagination is mind boggling.

Tom

 

[fegarex]

I will second what Marcus said about the burnisher. It can "move" the gold from high spots to low spots and like he says, if it lifts then, you know you need to work over the channel.

 

[joseph engraver]

Taking this gold thing a bit farther,
When starting a project where there was to be gold work I would sweep and clean the floor of my studio well. Then do the work. When finish I would sweep every thing into a dust pan. Dirt, metal chips, pieces of gold that had fallen while setting them. If a piece fell to the floor I left it there and fitted a new one. It was much faster than stopping work to search for it. Next I would take a magnet pass it over the sweepings and remove the steel chips. The next step was to pour the remaining dirt, dust, cat hair and gold pieces into a pan of water. The gold would sink to the bottom and the debris would float. I would then skim off the floating trash and carefully drain the water off and pick out the larger pieces of gold and pour the remaining flakes and small unusable pieces into a film container. When the container was full I would send it back to the supplier and they would credit me minus a nominal refining charge on my next order.

 

[Pewterscribe]

Marcus, Suttons in Birmingham haven't currently got any water of ayr stones as I've been trying to one out of them since your last post about the qualities of these stones.

colin

 

[Tom Curran]

Marcus, Suttons in Birmingham haven't currently got any water of ayr stones as I've been trying to one out of them since your last post about the qualities of these stones.

colin

I wonder if "silversmith' stones are the same or similar? I know Gesswein carries a tremendous selection of stones, from super hard aggressive to very soft and gentle. http://www.gesswein.com/ unfortunately, their website is a nightmare to navigate. You have to know exactly what you're looking for in order to find it. Huh?

Tom

Joseph, I did not sweep my shop first, and when I drop a small bit of gold I hear a little voice in the background "now If you'd swept first, you'd be able to recover that......."

Ah, we get too late smart, and too quickly old.

 

[Tira]

Tom, We have the stone information including the part numbers from Gesswein in the Tips section under Resources for Engravers. It's here:

Resources for Engravers

These are the rapid breakdown stones that many people use. I'm not sure where to get the Water of Ayre stones.

 

[Leonardo]

Marcus, Suttons in Birmingham haven't currently got any water of ayr stones as I've been trying to one out of them since your last post about the qualities of these stones.

colin

Pewterscribe, here you have a link to Sutton Tools's Water of ayr stones:
http://www.suttontools.co.uk/cgi-lo...SEARCH&SS=Water&TB=A&PR=-1&SX=0&ACTION=Search

Hope this help,
Leonardo

 

[Pewterscribe]

Leonardo,
I hadn't even thought of looking on the web as I have easy access to Suttons Tools Birmingham Shop. I've been trying to get a stone from the shop , it seems like for ages. but is probably only a few weeks..I'll try ordering from the website. ..Thanks

 

[ED DELORGE]

Hello Tom, to make that excess gold removal problem a little simpler, I simply attach a plastic dish pan to my bench vise via bailing wire with the engraved item above the dish pan and go to sanding the gold with 400 grit wet or dry wrapped around my 8 inch file. The gold fall in the dish pan and is swept into my little plastic 35 mm film container. I have almost two ounces of droppings in it now. And no risk of scratching the engraved piece.

By the way the piece you are working o n looks great your lettering is exclent.

Good luck Ed

 

[Marcus Hunt]

Ed, the only problem with trying to strike flush with wet & dry paper is the potential of the gold 'dipping'. This is caused because the two different metals will cut at different rates. Although it's probably fine for the initial 'strike' and the recovery of any scrap gold I wouldn't recommend it for finishing a flush gold inlay. The beauty of stoning is that you don't have this problem as the two metals (harder steel and softer gold) will cut at the same rate.

Tom, I'm not certain whether silver smith stones work the same or not. I know my father uses some Gesswein stones occasionally but I'm not sure which ones. I'll ask him next time I see him. As for the Gesswein website, I have never been successful in logging into it let alone navigating it! It's a shame as there's some good stuff that they have and I'm sure they are losing loads of potential customers because they just can't be bothered with the hassle.

 

[Degs]

Try Cromwells for UK supplies of gesswein stones etc. Very helpfull.

Link to stones web page.........

http://www.cromwell.co.uk/category_page/09060103


Degs

 

[d.soileau]

Lot's of different methods to do this. Mine might not be the best but works for me. I use a copper scraper to remove the gold. I soldiered a penny to a brass rod/handle and scrape the excess off first. I think this came from Sam years ago where he learned from Lynton. The nice thing about this is it will let you get "rough" with the inlay you can be sure the gold is going to stay put. Than I use stones and or sandpaper after that. I have tried a well polished flat with the edges knocked off but I always seem to nick the base metal. It also looks like you have a bit too much gold in the inlay. Either go deeper or use a smaller diameter wire. It just makes life easier. Trying to reclaim ultra fine shavings of gold may not be worth the cost when it comes to inlays. I think if you are jeweler dealing in gold all day long it may make a difference.

im curious as to the details if shaping this tool. got a pic you could send? ive not done much (any really) inlay work.... yet. knowing how to prep the tools for it before i start wont hurt i think.
thanks.

 

[fegarex]

I don't have a picture handy. All you do is drill a hole in the center of a penny and soldier it to a rod with a comfortable handle. In my case, I had a broken .22 cleaning rod made from brass with a nice wood handle. I just soldiered a penny to the end of it. When the penny gets chewed up from scraping the gold I usually just resharpen it on a grinder, belt sander or power hone. You can even grind a flat on it if you like.