Question: Deep relief carving

[scott99]

HI,I have many books on engraving. Some old some new. In Meeks book he touches on deep relief engraving but just a bit. I was wondering if there is a more complete book on deep relief engraving(carving)?:thinking:

Thanks scott99

 

[mitch]

not that i'm aware of, Scott. i've often considered teaching a class, but haven't seen that much demand for it.

 

[Crazy Horse]

Mitch, have you considered doing a tutorial on here? I'm sure it would generate a good deal of interest.

 

[tim halloran]

Scott: Chris De Camilis did a video on power sculpting on his forum-webb site recently. Also Ray Cover has one for sale on the Lindsay forum.There might be a few on the FEGA webb site also.

 

[diandwill]

http://www.handengravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=8450
Here's a link to a tutorial that Ray Cover did on the Lindsay forum.

 

[mitch]

Mitch, have you considered doing a tutorial on here? I'm sure it would generate a good deal of interest.

While it would be relatively simple to do a basic demo of the mechanics of relief-sculpting metal, in order to really do it justice one needs to study & understand the form of the leaves, scrolls, etc. The actual engraving/carving is pretty straightforward, but without a solid education in rendering forms in 3D you'll just end up with well sculpted & polished clods of junk. Being able to think & see in 3D is key to the whole process. I could teach most any reasonably skilled engraver the basic tool usage involved, but teaching them to envision and create suitable designs & figures to apply those techniques to is another matter entirely.

This whole concept goes back to understanding the hows & whys of shading 2-dimensional scroll to represent depth and then translating those lines into actual depth. If you don't understand why shading is done a certain way in 2D scrollwork, it will be very difficult to make the mental leap to 3D. A really comprehensive course in relief-sculpted scroll would be invaluable for anyone wanting to take their 2D work to another level, even if you never have much call for sculpting.

 

[Christian DeCamillis]

Well said Mitch.

What people have to realize about doing any kind of sculpture and many of us who are in the jewelery trade and carve wax are essentially doing miniature sculptures, is that in order to do this a person has to be able to see the object in there minds eye in 365 different angles. It's much like what you see when you see a 3D rendering on a computer and rotate it all around to see all the views.

The bas relief work done in engraving is like viewing a topographical map in your minds eye. You also have to use perspective in some situations to make it work as well.

I agree that if you can't shade your leaf structures to give them form then you will have a difficult time trying to form 3 dimensional structures.

 

[Andrew Biggs]

I sort of agree with the above but not entirely.

Like all things that we do it is a matter of getting your feet wet and giving it a try for yourself. Sometimes we get caught up in the minute detail wanting to know the A to Z of a topic when in reality you only need some guidance in the right direction. From then on it's just a matter of practice and observation and a lot of the questions we have answer themselves very quickly. Your first attempts will be a bit ungainly but with more practice and observation they will get better as time goes on.

Just remember one thing......."light and shadow". That is what it is all about. In 2D you create that effect with fine shading from dots to long shading lines in a leaf. With 3D work you are actually creating those high and low spots that create light and shadow.

From my understanding there are two distinct ways to make your work 3D. The first is chasing which is using punches to move metal around and form it to the shape you want. The second is carving where you remove metal similar to wood carving. I guess there would also be a mixture of both but have I have no idea if that even has a technical name.

Phil Coggan is an absolute master when it comes to carving (and anything engraving for that matter) where he only carves and burnishes. He did an excellent tutorial a couple of years ago on this forum about it. From that I gave it a go on a practice plate and ended up doing a few jobs in that particular technique of Phil's.

I then went on to give a free 1/2 hour seminar about it at Reno this year and the DVD is available on the FEGA web site. (all funds go to FEGA)..........it's very basic and shows you a few tools that I use and is simply designed to get you started and thinking about the process. Where you end up is entirely up to you.

If you really are interested in the process I would encourage you to buy the book British Gun Engraving by Douglas Tate as it has many examples of Phil's work as well as the Brown Brothers. Alain Lovenberg is another whose 3d work is simply stunning and his work appears in many gun engraving books. His Napoleon gun is to die for and well worth observing on his web site.....There are many fine examples of work out there by other engraving artists as well. So as you can see, the research material is all there and you would do well to closely look at it.

One thing I would impress upon you is to not be afraid to shape your tools accordingly. Don't get lost in the detail with exact tool angles and all the rest of the crap. They are just guidelines only to get you started. If the tool is too big, then make it smaller. Shape your gravers to whatever is required.

Just get your feet wet and do it. Like I said.......most of your questions will be answered all by themselves as soon as you start on a practice plate.

Oh yeah, the other thing you will need in spades is patience...........because there is a lot of time involved.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Crazy Horse]

Thanks for the link "diandwill" I'm going to look into it. It appears to be very comprehensive abnd detailed, and the cost is not prohibitive.

 

[scott99]

HI again,I have been making very small 3D carvings for years and for me the ability to carve in 3 dimentions is not a real problem. When I carve in Boxwood or Ivory (LEGAL!!) I use over 100 tools to get the effects I want.

What I am trying to do is NOT reinvent the wheel when it comes to deep engraving. The best thing would be advice on tool shapes ect. That would be nice but is probably a problem to show on the forum, any help with this would be appreciated greatly. Shapes ,angles, whatever to help me with making the proper tools.

I also want to THANK everyone who has sent me replys I have learned a bit from them all.

Thanks again scott99

 

[John P. Anderson]

My 2 bits..... When we create a 2D drawing/engraving/painting we strive to create the optical illusion of 3D in 2 Dimensions. A 3D sculpture/engraving is a one to one translation without needing to rely on optical illusion. I have a friend that's a well paid Sculptor and he swears it's far more natural/easier than drawing.

I was taught the 2 Dimension and found the transition awkward but in the end I also feel 3D is a more natural form of expression. It takes a ton more time. 10 cuts for every 1 in 2D. Wood carving is a great warm up.

I do 90% of my metal sculpting in small scale (I'm a push graver) with a 1.25mm or so Flat and a 60 degree V. The Scrapers and burnishers are super important. Scrapers must be kept sharp. I do have a couple tools with "special" shapes but all in all I work with a pallet of about 5-6 push tools with the flat and V doing most of the work.

I learned the little I know reading old forum post from Carl Bleile and Phil Coogan. I sincerely thank them for the time they took to post. I think most of it is posted as free tutorials at http://www.engravinglessons.com/Hand Engraving Resources.htm. Carl tells how to make your scrapers in some of his post. Take your time reading and re-reading Phil Coogan's gathered material as it is wealth of information, much of it understated.

Most of the time were working in a Bas Relief which is weird meld of 2D/3D but that's the Art of It.

John