Bizarre graver point phenomenon

mitch

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
2,636
Yesterday I started cutting on a knife frame and was noticing that while the metal did not seem inordinately hard, the cuts were rough- even jagged- on the surface. This could be seen under the microscope and was very obvious to my fingertip whenever i brushed away a chip. The point felt like it was holding up ok, but after awhile it seemed to drag and I swapped it out for a fresh sharp graver. Usually one notices a dull/chipped point when it fails to bite cleanly into the metal at the start of a cut. This graver was still fine in that respect, but felt rough as it was cutting lines.

This morning I took a closer look at these two graver points and noticed that apparently the hard surface of the steel was wearing the edges of the cutting face, but allowing the point to remain reasonably, functionally, intact. Since it would be difficult for me to photograph a graver point, I made a wooden mock-up to illustrate this phenomenon.

A couple years ago I worked on a knife that had been aggressively buffed to a mirror finish and had similar cutting characteristics (I did not notice any weird graver point wear at the time). I assume that what happens is the metal becomes overheated and is effectively case-hardened in the process. However, the knife I'm working on now had a nice wipe or brush finish, so perhaps the maker buffed it heavily before final fine grit polishing?

Note: The gravers were the one's Chris DeCamillis sells (used to sell?) for cutting stainless, plain old 90° squares, sharpened with 15° heel & 54° face.
 

Attachments

  • Image.jpg
    Image.jpg
    86 KB · Views: 286
  • Image 1.jpg
    Image 1.jpg
    83.1 KB · Views: 288
  • Image 2.jpg
    Image 2.jpg
    77.4 KB · Views: 290

Gemsetterchris

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2009
Messages
820
Location
Finland
I've had similar happen on one side, I put it down to a bad patch in the tool blank.
I was cutting gold at the time.
I also bought some blanks from Chris, though to be honest I've no idea wether I was using one of them at the time..I don't pay attention to those details :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Sam

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator
Staff member
Joined
Nov 6, 2006
Messages
10,491
Location
Covington, Louisiana
I've experienced it as well, but I don't recall a graver looking quite like that. I've had metal tear at the edge of the cut and suspected polishing was the culprit.
 

silverchip

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jun 1, 2007
Messages
1,877
Location
Fishermans Paradise,Idaho
Yup,I've had it happen on silver too,I think it is a result of having the point remaining in tact but the edge is dull, thus tearing and raising the metal.
 

scott99

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
625
Location
West Allis Wisconsin
Hi, I am certainly no expert but have seen this problem as well. It happened to me on a piece brass and I also thought I had hit a hard spot. So whats the fix? when it happened to me there was room to cut around the tear, but I feel lucky about that. At the time I just changed to a new point and stuck the offender in the rack I keep for tools that need sharpening.

Is there a fix? I would hate to think of the fix just being O,Poop another tear.

scott99
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
663
Location
alaska
Is that wearing down? or flaking off/chipping?

Wonder if the facets are "too perfect" from mechanical sharpening aids.
Lynton McKenzie talks about similar on his Beginning Engraving Video.

About how PERFECT facets on the graver are not as functional as one's slightly imperfect as done by hand sharpening.

michael
 

Andrew Biggs

Moderator
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
5,034
Location
Christchurch, New Zealand
I've had graver points break on the side before........but not as symmetrical as that. Usually it's the carbides that break so dramatically.

I've just put it down to weak spots in the graver material.

Not sure about Michael's theory. Too perfect??..........mmmmmmmm :shock:

Cheers
Andrew
 

tundratrekers@mtaonline.n

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2008
Messages
663
Location
alaska
Not my theory.
But the small amount of "rounding" that occurs while hand sharpening,
could be compared to the edge of an japanese sword.
Unlike an flat grind ,it is radiused to the edge,teardrop or apple seed profile/cross section.
This makes the edge much stronger than ,say , an razor blade.
I believe this is why many find the need to dub the tip?
michael
 

scott99

Elite Cafe Member
Joined
Jun 13, 2011
Messages
625
Location
West Allis Wisconsin
Well it looks like there is no "fix" for this I suppose a watchful eye is the best and only defence. O,well something for me watch more carefully . When it occured here I put it down to my inexperience, that in my case might still be true. But hearing others have run into side failures at least makes me feel less like the Lone Ranger.

scott99
 

mitch

~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
2,636
"too perfect" is never a problem in my world.

and i'm a little surprised one of our resident smart *$$*s haven't said, "Geez, whaddaya expect with wooden gravers?"
 

Latest posts

Sponsors

Top