Help, please: beginner seeking help

[James]

Hi, I am beginning engraver with a backround in jewelry.I have always loved fine engraving of all styles and have started w/ hand push on copper practice plates using lindsay templates to sharpen, using momax gravers, for now, primarily using the square graver sharpened w/ steves universal point geometry. I am having a heck of a time with slipping, and the push effort needed seems excessive. Should I be annealling my copper plates, should I be using HSS vs. momax, is the lindsay point inappropriate for copper, any ideas whats going on? Should I get some private instruction? would really appreciate any advice, as I would love to incorporate engraving into my silversmithing.

 

[Dave London]

I would say that the graver material is ok,also the point if not chipped . So you are likely going too deep and slipping is part of hand push untill you learn the proper depth and force. Good luck and keep practicing
Further Brian Marshall in I think Stockton teaches engraving,I am guessing you are in CA

 

[Kevin Scott]

James, I have had the exact same problem. I have five Lindsay templates, and I don't think any of the square graver geometries offered are suitable for hand pushing. But other more knowledgeable engravers disagree.
My theory is that the working face angle, or what I think is called the included angle, is too steep at 60-65 degrees. For push power, I like 45-50 degrees. Also the parallel heel makes the need to go deep when making flare cuts. Both these things create more resistance, need more "push". The more push needed, the more likely to slip.
I use the old graver geometry as in the old jewelry engraving books. And you have to use a different technique than what people use with air power and Lindsay geometry. You can check my picture album to see what I have done.

I don't think your copper plates need to be annealed. They should cut very easily. Doubt if changing your graver material will make a difference. I use steel.
Maybe I am doing something wrong. I have not had any instruction. Would be a very good idea to see a teaching engraver that is familiar with the Lindsay geometry and hand pushing.
You could try putting a shim under your sharpening stone to reduce the face angle with the Universal template. That also reduces the face width, but that is okay, as long as you don't go under 90 degrees face width. As you increase face width, more push power is needed. I use 90 and 95 degree face width almost all the time. Wider, and need more power, which means more slips.
In addition to the lower face angle, you could try the universal template without the parallel heel.
Good luck, and hope this helps.

 

[Sam]

Hi James and welcome to the Cafe. Back when I was engraving without power, my hand gravers were sharpened a bit differently than what I use for handpiece engraving. Since I sharpened by hand I didn't know the exact face and heel angles. Today I was making up a hand graver for pushing so I found one of my old ones from years ago and measured it. The face angle is 25° and the heel is about 17.5°. I have to say that I'm a bit surprised that I had been using such low face angles (I use 45° in my handpiece gravers). So I sharpened-up this graver in a 120° configuration, tested it on a copper plate, and it handles nicely despite me being a bit rusty. So you might give this geometry a try and see how it feels to you.

Cheers / ~Sam

 

[BrianPowley]

....and for what it's worth, excessive effort isn't called for. There's a combination of downward pressure to keep the bulino in the metal and forward pressure to make the cut. It isn't always done on the first pass. (Except Ron Smith----he can seriously push some steel)

 

[GTJC460]

I've noticed the same thing as sam. I have tons of old gravers that my grandfather used. His face angles were noticeably more shallow and the lifts were greater and larger in size. The gravers were also not tapered down nearly as much as what I do with my gravers. In fact most square gravers weren't tapered at all unless the graver was a tapered square blank.

One of the things I find about hand pushing, it's a heck of a lot easier to do on small cuts than big long cuts. So a little tip, try working on much smaller designs than practicing large designs. Besides for jewelry engraving, your designs are going to be small anyway. The biggest thing you are most likely to engrave on rings is maybe a circle the size of a quarter, 25mm. Most rings have an inside diameter of about 17-20mm. Also most lettering jobs you'll encounter are usually 10mm or smaller.

Practice small!

 

[bronc]

A little lube on your graver will sure help when you are hand pushing.

Stewart

 

[Roger Bleile]

James,

You didn't write that you have an engraver's block (ball vise). Hand pushing without a block is even more difficult for a beginner. Using a block, the engraver moves the work into the graver tip. The weight of the block is an important factor in the technique. For example, cutting a spiral (if you are right handed) you would cut in a counterclockwise direction while moving the block and workpiece clockwise.

As mentioned above, by Dave, you may be trying to cut too deeply. This is a common issue with beginners. You need to learn to make fine shallow cuts at first however deep heavy cuts are made with a hammer & chisel or powered handpiece unless you are cutting something very soft like silver. Engravers who do bright cut style in sterling with a push graver actually do not cut that deeply. They flare the cuts a lot to give the illusion of depth. Nevertheless, if you are pushing, slipping now and then will be a part of life. I met an elderly engraver in Reno two years ago who had done bright cut silver for over thirty years with a burin. His left hand looked like it had been hit with a load of #9 birdshot from where he had stabbed himself over the years.

Good luck,

RB

 

[tim halloran]

James: You Haven't Said Whether Your Using A Ball Or Block Mounted On Bearings? If The Tool Is Sharpened Properly The 120 Degree Tool Should Be Easier To Push Than The 90 Degree.I Would Lower The Face Angle Like Sam Suggests, As It Will Cut Soft Metals Like Copper More Easily. Always Use A Good Lubricant, As Soft Metals Will Cold Weld To The Bottom And Face Of The Tool, Increasing The Effort Needed To Push The tool.If The Tool Is Sharpened Right You Should Be Able To Simply Rotate The Plate In The Block Into The Tool As It Cuts , Similar To A Lathe Tool Cutting Metal. If You Could Find The Tapes Or DVD's That Lynton McKenzie Made He Shows Really Well How To Hand Push A Tool, And How To Drive It With A Chisel. Hammer And Chisel Will Give You a Lot Better Control Of the Tool. Also Momax Is High Speed Steel That Is Impregnated With Cobalt, You Would Be A Lot Better Off Using Carbide Tooling. It Will Cut Cleanly With No Cold Welding. Get Yourself A Good Power Hone Sharpening System With Diamond Wheels, As It Is A Must Have For Sharpening Carbide. Also A Ceramic Lap For High Speed, And A Cast Iron Lap For Carbide. You Wont Believe How Sharp The Cast Iron Lap Can Get A Carbide Tool. I Use One Daily To Sharpen My Carbide Tools And I Am Amazed At How Much Better A Tool Will Cut When It Is Really Sharp.

 

[monk]

the lindsay sharpening system is rather fail-safe, assuming you're using it properly. you want only a tiny bit of heel on these gravers. most any graver, properly sharpened, will cut copper like butter. using the lindsay template system assures the same exact geometry each time you use it. i use lindsay and grs both. both give good results when properly used. the great feature of the grs system-- it allows for custom configuration of your gravers. if you're "digging" in too deeply, you would want to shorten your heels. usually a half milimeter or so works well.

 

[James]

Hello all, sorry for some reason was unable to get reply posted. Vast appreciation and thanks to each and every one of you for the informative and inspirational responses, I am a bit in awe that such great engravers and artists would take the time to respond to my problem,I intend to reseach images of all your work for inspiration and pleasure! Special thanks to Sam for the welcome and thoughfull response, and Mr. Bleile for his great imagery of the hand push engraver whose left hand looked "like it had been hit with a load of #9 birdshot" I too have had "blood on the ball vise". I am in the San Francisco bay area if anyone resides in the area who would like to give me some mentoring ( for suitable renumeration, of course) Once again, so much appreciation such distinguished engravers would take the time to respond to my questions!