Chinese knockoffs hurt our art

Sam

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CHINESE KNOCK-OFFS HURT THE ENGRAVING ART

I have taught 5-string banjo for many years and have had many students come through the door with poorly made Chinese instruments. They are not made by musicians, but are mass produced by factories that know nothing of how an instrument should be be made. The end product has incorrect string spacing, high action, bad neck adjustment, and the list goes on. These instruments are non responsive and extremely difficult to play. The student suffers with sore fingers and is robbed of the joy of learning to play a musical instrument, and soon abandons it altogether. Musical instruments don’t have to be expensive, but they do have to be built correctly. And it’s not just banjos. It’s guitars and other instruments as well.

The same thing can be said of knock-off engraving systems from China. They are made by companies that know nothing of the hand engraving process. They have no passion for the art. Only a passion for the quick dollar. They reverse engineer and make lookalikes as cheaply as possible without regard to the end user. It’s all about them. Not us.

These machines and handpieces lack the smoothness and precision that are required for proper engraving. Some who buy them fiddle with them and attempt to improve performance, but they never achieve results like properly engineered tools that are built to exacting tolerances.

Like those who purchase badly made musical instruments, they are robbed of the joy of engraving as they struggle with engraving systems that lack the sensitivity and responsiveness of equipment that is built to extremely tight tolerances by people who CARE about the quality of work their equipment produces and the people who use it.

If you can’t afford good tools, save your money until you can. Don’t fall into their trap as it’s money down the drain.
 

mitch

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i'd add that with cheap tools beginners can't know if their difficulties lie in their hands or their tools. when you have confidence in your tools, you can focus on the human factor.
 

Memorymaker

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Thanks for explaining about the lack of precision and smoothness ...... the advise you guys gave me over a year ago saved me a bunch of dollars and frustration from buying junk. The GRS system is my favorite.
 

Brian Marshall

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Well, I dunno about the "Art" part of it - as that is in the eyes of the beholder.

But, I can tell you for a fact, that certain manufacturers are making sure that they have their jobs (not firearms) at the San Francisco or Los Angeles airport early Monday morning. They can have them back from China fully engraved by Friday. Most small shops here do NOT have a one week turnaround.

That should be causing ya'll more worries than a few slipshod machines.

And it won't be long - for China has always had an incredible art history - before their engraving exceeds what you're thinking is possible.


Brian
 
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Jerry K

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We can't stop with musical instruments and engraving. The knife work coming out of China, Pakistan, etc. is improving by the minute and they are being dumped on the public by large American firms at incredibly cheap prices. The Bay has a Loveless Clone showing the Loveless Naked Lady etched in the blade for $100.00!!!!
Jerry K.
 

Brian Marshall

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In Guadalajara, Mexico there are hand engravers who have been quite competitive - with equal (sometimes quite a bit better) quality engraving compared to the majority of what is done up here for many years.

Most of them are Western silver engravers, but some are doing instruments and limited edition knives as well.


They now have UPS and Fed Ex direct from USA. It's not like the old days where your only option was snail mail that would never arrive...

And they too are always learning - and learning even faster from all the free "schooling" up on youtube, as well as studying all the best of the best engraving images that have been posted to the Internet over the past 10 years.


B.


So.... which "competition" is going to affect our USA "artists" more seriously? The cheap/low quality Chinese machines - or hundreds of highly skilled new YOUNG hand engravers working from home shops all over the world? I'd think the latter will prove to be pretty formidable...
 
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Marrinan

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Lower cost of living, lower compensation, lots of competition, lower expectations of the first three changing. Mexican silver-work put me and a good many still on the reservation out of the business. I'd rather give my work away than sell at their rate, and I do.
Fred
 

Brian Marshall

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Ummm Fred...


The majority of Mexicans ARE "Indians" (native "Americans") as well - Nahuatl, Cochimi, Purepechas, Aztecas, Mayas, Coahuiltecos, Chichimecas, Tarahumara and on and on and on.


Most people seem to think Mexicans are "Spanish". That is not true.

While some are "mestizos" (mixed) since the Spaniards forced their language, religion and sexual proclivities into their cultures - quite a few remain...


ALL "borders" are man made imaginary lines... delineating one general area as governed by one government or another.

Ever try to measure a border down to a thousandth of an inch? Or even a millimeter? Must be a lot of surveyors & lawyers who've gotten rich off that...

So why would the native tribes in what has been split off into "North America" be better or different than their counterparts below the "modern" artificial border of Central America or even South America?


Brian
 
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pmace

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It's just like the diamond and gemstone trade. What used to be done in Amsterdam and New York is done in India and Pakistan. To the untrained eye the quality is acceptable and the price is unbeatable. Hand engraving is labor intensive (like gem cutting, jewelry making, etc.) and like with everything else buyers are going to where the labor is the cheapest and quality remains at least "acceptable". Combine that with technology such as lasers and CNC micromachining and the outlook is not rosy.

Recently my wife bought a necklace on line. A simple 1" brass disk, custom engraved monogram, gold plated (after engraving) for $25.00 delivered. Got it in less than a week from China. Right then I knew I wasn't going to make any money there. I go to stores selling the "good stuff" to tourists and they are selling stuff at retail I wouldn't even think of making at wholesale.

Will hand engraving done by an American artisan go away? No, because there will be clients that are willing to pay that premium. Will low end engraving go away? Yup, it's already started. What can we do as an industry to compete? I don't have the answer.
 

dogcatcher

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The Chinese issue is like it was with in the past with Japanese goods, they started out cheap and somewhat inferior, but now the Japanese are still cheaper and their merchandise is top notch. I see it in the tool market, what was once Chinese made borderline junk are becoming the choice of many people. Wood lathes? They almost all come from China or Taiwan. They are usually designed by American companies and then manufactured in China, then the Chinese make a minor change and produce their own line of comparable products. I can spend a $1000 on a Jet 1236 or go down the street and buy a Harbor Freight 34706 for $320. If I need parts, I can call Jet and have them overnighted for the Harbor Freight version. The Jet is white, the HF is green, for $600 I can paint the green one white and it will even look like a Jet. The same guys in China made them both.

The low end art? People will always buy bargains, don't believe that? Park by any Walmart, Dollar General, Family Dollar store and look at the amount of customers going and coming.
 

Sam

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i'd add that with cheap tools beginners can't know if their difficulties lie in their hands or their tools. when you have confidence in your tools, you can focus on the human factor.

You are SO right.
 

Sam

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This thread took a different turn which is ok, but my point was that the beginner who buys this shoddy crap equipment and struggles to make a decent cut might throw up his/her hands in disgust and abandon the effort. Then again if they're really determined like many of us were, they'll find a way that works.

As for Chinese or Mexican engraving, I'm not worried about it. I've trained engravers in Mexico and they were damned good, but I'm not doing production work. Eventually they'll be cranking out world class engraving on custom knives and watches (maybe not guns for obvious reasons) and when that happens we just have to deal with it. Nothing stays the same.
 

Mike_Morgan

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The trouble I have with this issue, is that all too often the beginners that ask if they should buy the Chinese knock-offs,continue on to argue with a person that tells them "NO". They don't like the answer, because they want to believe that the precision made stuff is a rip-off, and somehow China has a magical formula that makes equivalent products for a fraction of the price.

This is then supported by a well-intentioned person that will jump in and say something that is ENTIRELY false... "These Chinese ball vices are made in the same factory in China as the GRS version" OR, "The Chinese GraverMax is identical to the GRS, because it's the exact same design, just made with less expensive labor". And NEITHER of these things are the truth. Yet SO many people believe it, because they WANT to believe it.

And Sam is right, people buy this junk that even an EXPERT would have trouble using, and when they cannot learn engraving they quit.

This forum is a great place to sort all these things out, but unfortunately many people are finding their way onto facebook groups for information, and that's where the proliferation of lies about the quality of these items occurs. And people jump right in and support the misinformation. It's such a shame. If I read one more time that a 179 dollar Amscope is every bit as good as a Leica I'm going to scream. And there's ALWAYS a guy that jumps in and says... "I've been using that exact same scope for years and it suits me fine" which of course leads to yet another victim of buying junk and wasting money.

In the end, there's only a few possible outcomes. 1) People buy the junk, and eventually discover they wasted the money and end up buying real quality (usually used, often for the same amount they wasted) or 2) People buy the junk, they never learn to engrave and they quit entirely. I've yet to meet anybody, though it may be possible, that actually bought the junk, and continues to use the junk well into a real career as an engraver. I suppose it could happen.

How do we create a credible argument that people will actually LISTEN TO and heed the advice? There must be a way.
 

mitch

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They can have them back from China fully engraved by Friday. Most small shops here do NOT have a one week turnaround. Brian

last week i put in 30 hrs in 2 1/2 days on a rush job for a major sporting event. some of us can still do good, fast (but it wasn't cheap!).
 

dogcatcher

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This thread took a different turn which is ok, but my point was that the beginner who buys this shoddy crap equipment and struggles to make a decent cut might throw up his/her hands in disgust and abandon the effort. Then again if they're really determined like many of us were, they'll find a way that works.

As for Chinese or Mexican engraving, I'm not worried about it. I've trained engravers in Mexico and they were damned good, but I'm not doing production work. Eventually they'll be cranking out world class engraving on custom knives and watches (maybe not guns for obvious reasons) and when that happens we just have to deal with it. Nothing stays the same.

If they abandon the idea of engraving because of the equipment, their heart wasn't in it to start with. They would have bailed just as fast if they were using the best of equipment or hand pushing.

There are bargains for sale all of the time because people find out engraving is hard work and not suitable g=for everyone. I see people all of the time that are "hobby shopping", looking for a hobby to fill a need. After awhile they bail and sell that "stuff" to finance the next hobby, it is like a revolving door for them.
 

Andrew Biggs

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Having seen and tried a lot of knock-off’s it’s fair to say that they are junk. It’s also fair to say that there are a lot of supposedly high end expensive tools out there that are just as bad.

There’s no doubt about it. Good quality tools make the job easier.

But…………

There is also another point of view that these products can be “lead in” items to getting better tooling.

The novice beginner is confronted with a vast array of tools from around the world and this is exacerbated by the internet. After all, the internet is now one giant shopping basket. As westerners, we often don’t fully appreciate just how cheap these “expensive and quality“ tools are.

It’s tempting to see the lower price and make the comparison that all tools are equal if they look the same. We all have budget constraints. If you don’t know any better it’s a long term expensive assumption to make………this is right across the trades and not just confined to engraving.

And like all younger generations, it’s rare to listen to the advise of our parents who have made exactly the same mistakes. The temptation is always to keep asking the same questions till we find someone who gives us the advise that we want to hear………..We all have to live and learn. Some more than others unfortunately.

But after a while, the realisation comes that the equipment/tools they are using is not doing it for them. So they start gradually replacing and upgrading their knock-off’s and junk with better tooling. This can be driven by commercial imperatives in larger factories or by passion in the family workshops. Or a combination of both.

I’ve often hear that people should start with hammer/chisel or burin to get a feel for the Art Of Engraving. These tools are about as basic as you can get and in the right hands create masterpieces. They are awkward and hard to learn and can be incredibly frustrating because you need to build up arm muscle and memory. These tools are not for the faint hearted but they are cheap.

My personal opinion is that it’s like learning to ride a horse before you advance into a car. Technology has come a long way so why not take advantage of it.

Buying the tools is the easy and least expensive bit. Pull out a card, write a cheque or hand over cash. Job done……………..It’s the learning how to use those tools that is the expensive part because of the time, energy and passion involved.

For those that really have it in their heart and want to learn our fabulous art and get good at it…………they will find a way even if it means using a rock and rusty nail. Over time, as their experiences dictate and their understanding grows, they will advance to better tools. It just takes time. In the meantime we are blessed with companies that keep developing better and better tooling so that it makes our job easier.

As for cheap work…………well, that’s always been the case throughout history. There’s nothing new about it. There will always be someone nipping at your heels offering cheaper work, better service, more dolphin friendly, saving the planet and all the blah, blah blah. The way to combat that is to keep improving with your work, become someone easy to deal with and reliable and stay positive. If you go down the doom and gloom black-hole you will lose yourself because it’s a bottomless pit.

And always remember that wonderful saying……….Take my advise, because I’m not using it :) :)

Cheers
Andrew
 

Mike_Morgan

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There are bargains for sale all of the time because people find out engraving is hard work and not suitable g=for everyone. I see people all of the time that are "hobby shopping", looking for a hobby to fill a need. After awhile they bail and sell that "stuff" to finance the next hobby, it is like a revolving door for them.

I have Lindsay airgravers, a TW Powerhone, and a silentaire compressor that found their way to me as bargains because people do exactly what you're saying. Anybody looking for professional tools can find them if they just wait a few weeks. The stuff pops up all the time.

I still feel that Sam is correct in his assessment as well, that many people do fail because the tools they buy frustrate them, and as others have stated, anybody with a passion for this will overcome all the obstacles, and then some!

I feel that the inability to dedicate the time to learning how to draw probably sends quite a few folks packing as well. People really hate being bad at stuff long enough to get good at it. This forum is loaded with posts about people trying to find work-arounds to obviate the need to actually draw. There are folks that can cut any pattern that has been put in front of them that completely fall apart if they have to design even the most basic of scrolls.
 

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