Help, please: Uberti SS Model P clone

It's been a long time since I posted, been really busy. I was searching for info on Uberti SS pistols and how they cut and posted my question in that post when I should have started another thread. I apologize. Please ignore that post and reply here, thank you.
I'm engraving a Uberti SS clone of a Colt Model P. I am looking for info on if anyone had problems with the material being hard. I started cutting on the top strap. I got borders cut on both sides of the top strap and had the tip fracture on me 2x (using c-max). I resharpened to mirror finish and started on the leaves and immediately fractured the tip again. This isn't the usual dulling. I'm having to resharpen with the 180 gator wheel through to ceramic wheel. I'm cutting about 1-inch before tip fractures. I just did F engraving on a Uberti 66 carbine, 1851 navy confederate pistol, 2 brass uberti back straps, and numerous steel practice plates with the same graver without problems and only resharpened 1x per day just because. I tried my NGraver carbide and they fractured also. Any help will be appreciated.

I am currently cutting a Uberti SS. It is really hard. Wait till you try the back strap.:beatup: I am not sure what it is. I think it is a casting. But sometimes I think I see signs of it being centered metal. I used C-max but gave up on it for the same reasons you have stated. I am now using one of Ray Phillips carbide cutters. It has worked better. Still get the fractures but not as often. The stuff is something.

Thanks for responding Sandy. I had had some luck with my 7th NGraver carbide graver before it too fractured. After a few hours of slooooowww cutting I finished the top strap. Still need to do the shading though. If I don't shade and remove the black from the cuts I could reassemble the pistol and be done, I picked a good place to start, I could stop and it woudn't be that noticable. I'll sleep on it and see what I think tomorrow.
I was reading on the Lindsey Forum that Roger Bleil mentioned something about a magnet sticking to the metal (SS) and it seemed that if the magnet stuck you could engrave it. I tried a strong magnet on the area I engraved and the rest of the frame and backstrap. The magnet was slightly attracted to the topstrap, slighly more attracted to the frame but still wouldn't stick. Would not even seem to be slightly attracted to the backstrap or recoil shield / loading gate. The magnet stuck strongly to the hammer and cylinder though. I'm starting to think like Sam (life's to short to engrave bad metals).

Over the years I have had to engrave lots of guns with very hard steel. I don't care what graver metal you use (HSS, carbide, C-Max, etc.) you will be doing a lot of sharpening. My approach to dealing with the problem is twofold.

First: Forget about a 45 degree face angle which is too steep and fragile. The 45 is fine for precious metals and mild steels found in practice plates, antique guns and pre-hardened gun and knife parts. Use a steep face angle that will give the point more strength. I have used as much as an 80 degree face on some really tough buggers. Because of the steep face, you will probably be using less heel angle because the point does not want to dig in as easily. In general, for most gun work that is on hardened parts a 65 face with a 15 heel is a good starting place.

Second: Dubb the point. Often beginners think you need a needle sharp point to engrave but a slightly rounded point will still dig in and cut fine, though if you are trying to do high art scroll where you have 20 fine shade lines on a 1 mm leaf you do need a very sharp point. Most six-shooters are not shaded in that way.

Some guns are just plain awful and you need to find a way to cut your losses if you get into the job before you realize how bad the thing is

This whole issue is something I wrote about in my latest book when pointing out the difference between the way European and American engravers work . The majority of gun work done by our counterparts across the Atlantic is on pre-hardened steel sent to the engraver by a manufacturer or bespoke gunmaker. Most American engravers are working in a secondary market where we receive a completed gun from the owner which must be disassembled, stripped of finish, polished, engraved in the hardened state, refinished, and reassembled all by the engraver. Many years ago, before I understood this important difference, I would see pictures of someone like Harry Kell or a Colt factory engraver, engraving a gun part with a burin and wonder why I couldn't do that to the hardened gun parts I was working on. The foregoing is one of the reasons that power assisted gravers are far more popular in the US than elsewhere.

RB

Hi Michael the Uberti is oK to cut if you accommodate to the different parts of the metal be open to go from 55 to 80 face for cutting and 15 hell your bets fend is low speed , lubricant and a solid work station you graver will last . some pit good look

Guys,
Thank you very much. This is a gun that I wish I had not started. Live and learn. Thanks again.
Sandy

I just finished engraving a back strap on my brother in-laws SS Pietta SAA...... V E R Y hard and no fun.

Roger, Raul, and Sandy, thanks for responding and the help.:biggrin: I met with Jerry Harper this morning and he said I was engraving too deeply and the metal is hard is why I was fracturing my gravers. My tool geometry is 60 degree face, 20 degree heel. I dubbed the point by reversing the graver in the tool holder and placing the point down at a 60 degree angle on the ceramic wheel for about 3-5 seconds. I practiced cutting on an old piece of 87 shotgun barrel. I was surprised how well it cut (I cut a more uniform line, depth / width). I tried to do some touch up shading on brass though and had to fix the cut with sanding and a sharp graver. In the morning I will try to cut more on the stainless pistol with the dubbed point. Thanks again!:bow:

Michael,

If you put your point on a rotating wheel it will be excessively dubbed. When I dubb my points I put a piece of worn out 1500 grit paper on top of my bench stone and just lightly rotate the tip across the paper. I would expect that 3-5 seconds on a rotating ceramic wheel would cause a flat spot at the tip.
If you are going to be at the Engrave-In I will show you exactly how I do it.

Also see if you can talk Jerry Harper into going to the Engrave-In. I'm sure everyone would like to meet him and see his work.

RB

Roger, Thank you.:bow: You reminded me of how jerry showed me how to sharpen by hand. I did like you explained except I did it on a fine india stone. I just engraved the right side plate without needing to resharpen, shading and all. I am cutting very slow(about half speed for me) and trying hard not to go very deep and I'm doing better scrolls and leaves than on the last 2 guns I've done. My camera stopped working a while back or I'd post pic's. I need a new camera but time / money is limited. I figure it's more important to cut at this time. I'd be proud to show what I just cut but I would be embarrassed to show what I cut when I was going deep and breaking tips. It's a good thing it's my gun.
I forgot to ask jerry about going to the engrave-in. Not sure if I can make it either. When I get a camera I will take pics of Jerry guns to post for him. If the rest of the pistol goes like this, It'll be a pleasure to engrave stainless. I've got about 5 more:biggrin:

Dulltool said:

I just finished engraving a back strap on my brother in-laws SS Pietta SAA...... V E R Y hard and no fun.

Click to expand...

Dennis,

I'm glad you mentioned your problem with the Pietta. I've got a pair of Pietta made Great Western's in the safe. I checked them with a magnet and it stuck on everything except the backstrap and trigger guard

Roger

Roger, I'm assuming that the stronger the magnet sticks the better the metal will cut. My magnet was barely attracted to the backstrap and the ejector rod housing (would not stick at all). The backstrap was hardest by far. But, I only have the frame to compare with it. Finishing up the punch-dot on left side plate and will probably start with cylinder next. Magnet sticks very strongly to cylinder and hammer (I can shake these parts and magnet will not fall off). Can you explain the use of a magnet better. This seems to be a usefull tool to tell one how a firearm will behave before one commits to cutting it. Thanks again.

Michael: It Is The Carbon Content Of The Steel.

I don't know why but if a magnet doesn't stick on stainless I have found it means trouble! I learned this from Monk and it has proven true.