Question: Rolex watch cases

Chris: Put me down for one of your gravers when they're available.

Fakes: When I was in HK and Thailand I observed two kinds of fake Rolexes (and many other brands for sale in the markets). One is very poorly made and finished and is quite obvious. The other is a high grade fake that's so close to the real thing that you cannot tell without disassembly.

Marcus: My Money Is On The C-Max. I've Also Used Some Micro Grain Carbide Made For Interrupted Cut Machine Work. If You Don't Want To Be a Professional Tool Sharpener, Use A 110 Or 120 Degree Tool. I Put A 2.5 Degree Relief Angle On The Graver Similar To To The Way You Would Sharpen For A Triangular Heel. Then Kick Your Heel Angle Up To 17.5 Degrees And Rotate The Graver An Additional 10 Degrees So That You Sharpen The Heel All The Way From The Bottom To The Top Of The Graver. Put A Small Flat On The Bottom Of The Graver To Strengthen The Point. This Gives You A Graver That You Can Lean Over To Make Wide Bright Cuts, If You Want To, Without Leaving A Bur On The Edge Of The Cut. Use Plenty Of Lubricant . This Is A Configuration I Developed 20 Years Ago To Cut Motor Cycle Parts. I Use It Every Day To Cut Stainless Steel And Titanium Knives , And Stainless Firearms. It Gives You A Tool Similar To Two flat Gravers Side By Side In A, V , Shape. I Also Put The Final Polish On My Carbide Tools With A Cast Iron Lap, It Gets Them Very Sharp, And I Don't Experience Much If Any Tool Breakage. Have Used 1 Tool To Cut Entire Stainless Or Titainium Knives, And Fire Arms.

Arnaud, I was not saying to buy a fake but to make him aware that the new fakes I saw last week in chinatown did not have the second hand jumping but ran smoothly just like the real rolex. Thats all.
Keith

Chris new HHS gravers

Today I have been testing Chris new HSS graver on stainless steel. (Inox).

I engraved one of my designs on a stainless steel folder too, I started yesterday. The C-max breaks a lot on the knife, and is almost unable to cut the Stainless Steel plate I have. When the graver point breaks, almost one millimetre has to be sharpened.

Using Chris new HSS when face and heel perfectly polished is able to cut my hardest to cut Stainless Steel. But the tip broke a few times. Just a very little part of the tip. So I used the 600 diamond lap only to make the face and heel. Without polishing it after that. It then holds much longer, don’t know why but it does. I used some cutting oil as well. The cutting was quite deep in one cut, and only a few times I had to re-sharpen after only a small piece of the tip broke.

I tried several times both highly polished and just the 600 wheel. While cutting with the 600 grid sharpened, I could use the graver a long time without getting the tip broken, and the graver stayed sharp.

I also had to find out how the HSS graver would hold on while doing shading lines. I highly polished the HSS and as the shading lines were not that deep, the graver didn’t brake on the part I shaded.

I also was surprised that the cuts when the graver was not polished showed clear bright cuts.

So my conclusion while using this graver whole afternoon is that I didn’t have a graver able to cut this tough Stainless until now.

So Chris, send me 10 of these gravers as sure they will cut also Titanium, brass, and regular steel, silver and gold.


arnaud


A stainless steel folder from Chris website with my design


this is a sheet of hard to cut stainless steel


some shading lines with highly polished face and heel

Looks good, Arnaud. Do you know what # series of the stainless steel is? Looks like you're getting excellent results.

Sounds like fantastic stuff, I really need to try this graver steel. Chris, any idea how it holds up on aircraft grade titanium? Thanks for the excellent review Arnaud.

Marcus, the Aircraft Titanium you should be able to cut it whit a highly polished C-Max. In fact all Titanium cuts like butter compared to Stainless.
I think the Airplane Ti is grade 6, I have a sheet of that grade as well, I will try it with both C-Max and Chris HSS one and I will let you know.

arnaud

Sam, no I don't know about the Stainless, it is not on the sheet, just a number but that does not make sense to me. I comes from the Brico Shop.
If you tell me which Stainless is the toughest to cut, I will try to find a piece of that to give it a try. Perhaps Stainless Steel screw bolt shows the # serie?

arnaud

I really am quite hesitant once again to interject my thoughts/opinions here; however “decorating†watch cases is my specialty. After almost 20 years of decorating them, I do have a passing knowledge on the subject.

I am always willing to try new things, this new “HHS designed for cutting stainless†does have my curiosity up a bit.

Chris:
You state this new graver material is an onglette configuration, my question is size? Anything over size in the realm of 5/0 to O size …will produce too large/wide of a cut for practical watch case decoration …for the most part.

You do state your “tester†found them great for stone setting on watches…however that is a much different process than watch case “decorationâ€.

Do you “heel†the graver? If so and the heel does not follow the onglette design—exactly…it will no longer be an onglette…rather it will be more like a 90 degree configuration on the very point…which is what does the cutting. Any chance you could show a picture of this new graver, the shape of the heel if it has one, and the point? A picture with something recognizable for size comparison would be of great assistance.

As an aside a true onglette is sharpened on the face only…or it simply ceases to make a true onglette cut; thus defeating the intended purpose of an onglette .

Arnaud:
The difficulties you report here with this “new material†on a relatively “soft stainless†engraved on a flat surface that is “huge†compared to a watch case…which is “very hardâ€, not flat, and very small; I simply do not “see†a “marked†improvement of this “new graver material†over what is currently available on the market.

j.c.

Sam, I spoke with Arnuad and he said the stainless he used was non magnetic. so it must be a 300 series. I have tried it on everything 303 304 316 316L 440C

The one thing about stainless and titanium is that once they polish the surface the surface becomes work hardened. It's not that stainless is that hard it's tough that's what makes it difficult to cut. The 400 series all cut pretty well with about anything. It's the 300 that give people difficulty. Of these 303 is the easy ones to deal with. As you already stated today most watches are 316 or 316 L when they are polished it's more difficult.

JC. There is no perfect graver for stainless and as I said before It's the way or process of heat treat and also the manufacturer of the steel that makes this an improvement over what is available. In other words this isn't just a HSS grade that was a 1/8th inch blank that has been reground. The metallurgist and the company making them for me are doing it according to the application it's intended for.

The idea behind coming up with this was really for stone setting is stainless. The market for that is getting larger all the time especially with the price of metals. You misunderstood what I said about an onglet. The gravers I will have available are 3/32 square. The reason is because this is the norm. When I or Alexander used them for stone setting we grid the onglette shape ourselves and for stone setting we do not use a heel. except when doing a radius and the it is heeled on one side all the way up the onglette shape.
As far as the rest goes When they are available you should try it it if works better than what you muse now great. If it doesn't then keep using what works for you. It comes down to this . This is an improvement over what is out there now according to those that have tested it they find it better than what they have now. Also realize that a persons cutting style the way they hold something in the vise. all play a part in the success. If a person doesn't eliminate as much or all the vibration nothing is going to help. How a person exits a cut how they turn there graver, whether they stop and start a lot all are factors. When it comes to cutting tougher material. Using lube not using it and another thing OI think that is often missed is the cutting speed every material cuts differently by the speed one uses.

I hope this helps

Chris

Chris,

My thanks to you, this reply did clear up my questions/concerns and misunderstanding regarding the “ongletteâ€. That was what prompted my reply.

You must admit this computer form of communication… leaves much to be desired… to say the least. Confusion, misunderstandings etc… abound!

I was in no manner trying to detract from your tool offering; quite to the contrary, having to deal with very tuff stainless on a daily basis I would welcome a tool… blank …that would make my life less…stressful. If this is truly a “stronger/tougher†HSS designed with stainless in mind than what I currently consider HS steels, I am all for it.

A 3/32nd square blank is very understandable and would be quite welcome. I will for sure give it a try.

Would you care to send me one? Gratis or charged? Either way I would be willing to give it a try on my next project and give an unbiased report on my experiences with it here.

“As far as the rest goesâ€
Yes I am quite aware of and agree with what you mention here; hence my references of the past to “technique†….or the lack of it! J


To All:

Please understand; I have no “dog in this fightâ€â€¦Tool wars are the last thing on my mind; I have better things to do. I do not care “who makes whatâ€, “who has bestâ€â€¦anything…. ideas included.

I am always willing to try anything new to see if it improves my art, if it does I will use it, If it doesn’t I wont; simple as that.

I do not care who manufactures, offers a product, or idea... if it works for me I am happy.

j.c.

jc. You are right about communicating in writing. I didn't take any of your comments or concerns in a negative way. With the years of experience you have you have seen and heard it all. I thought your observations were good ones. I just wanted to clear up the onglette thing. while I was at it I am only trying to offer information that i know of mostly from my own experiences.

I totally agree with you on technique and this includes all of the things mentioned by you and others. including holding things properly. It is my opinion that vibration is the worst enemy of an engraver add to that difficult material to cut and you have a formula for failure.

I will be glad to send you one when I receive them. PM me or email me your address.

Chris

Christian DeCamillis said:

I totally agree with you on technique and this includes all of the things mentioned by you and others. including holding things properly. It is my opinion that vibration is the worst enemy of an engraver add to that difficult material to cut and you have a formula for failure.

Click to expand...

Oh yes, very much yes! So, Andrew, Chris, JC and any other watch engravers, how do you guys grip the cases and eliminate the vibration?

Hi Marcus

This is really top secret so make sure that you don't tell anyone else

I cut the watch cases using two jigs. First the top area around where the bezel sits and the face of the strap holders........Then the sides of the watch

I use my Magic mushroom made of wood and thermolock for the first part and a plain block of wood for the second. The bezel and backs are embedded in the top of the magic mushroom when I get to those parts. Plus I have a similar, but smaller jig for the rotors. I even engrave the strap buckles on the magic mushroom as the leather is attached to them when I engrave them.

It's quick to change, cheap, nasty, looks as rough as guts..............but works for me. If anyone has anything better or more practical then I'm all ears and would be keen to see it.

These watches can be very deceptive and sometimes you need to really tip the bits over in the vise and have plenty of finger room to work all over the contours. But that is very much dependant on the type of watch and brand you are engraving. They are all different sizes and shapes and contours so you have to play it by ear as you go.

My magic mushroom is made of hard wood...........ideally steel or brass or something threaded and fitted would probably be better. But of course you have to weigh up all the time and effort making one for the quantity you are doing.

Cheers
Andrew

Marcus, I have made special fixtures that hold the watches I work on. The ones I made are expanding collets. I like brass because it doesn't scratch the cases and it has enough density to dampen the vibration. As Andrew has pointed out you need to design then for each watch so that you can easily reach the areas you engrave.

If your just doing it one time It's not really worth the time to make fancy fixtures.

Chris,

Thank you! Email on its way. I have an upcoming project that should be able
to put this material through its paces.

Marcus, as with holding gun parts, knife parts or anything else that needs to be engraved…what ever works!! J

Thermoloc is great for some things if you understand how it functions, hot glue, orange shellac (or others), dopping or sealing wax as Arnaud mentioned in a different post. Pitch in a pinch. Jett-set is totally useless, custom fixtures …both what Andrew and Chris have said. No real “proper” way to do it.

A lot depends on the piece you are engraving, the style of engraving you are doing on it ...will determine how best to hold it.

I have adapted some basic watch holding tools for some applications other than what they were intended for originally. Nothing wrong with taking things from other trades and adapting to suit your needs.

On another note but pertinent, the subject of lubrication that Chris has mentioned.

All these years I never thought I used lubrication while cutting…until I thought about it some…I have always rubbed some thinned down ink into my cuts as I go along to better see the effect…so thinking about it; guess I have always used a lubricant…simply oil based printers ink.

j.c.

Thanks for the input guys, very helpful. just one more thing, should i make sure the glass is removed or can you cut with it in place?

If your feeling really brave you can cut it with the crystal still in it. But I wouldn't recommend it for obvious reasons

Save yourself a ton of grief and get the watch stripped down to it's components that you need to engrave. A competent watch guy will have it apart in 2 minutes and back together again in 5.

Cheers
Andrew

Engraving Rolex

In addition to what Andrew said, factor in the cost of having the watch tested for waterproofness after all work is done. Really should be done when a watch has been taken apart. Cost around $40 to $100 USA. Think of it as a insurance policy. Kevin Scott