Critique thread - post your opinions here

diandwill said:

I am too busy trying to survive, to make a living,

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These are the engravers who I admire and respect most. The guy in the trenches who engraves all day for others and then, when he is sick of looking at a graver by the end of the week, picks it back up to engrave for himself and improve. Teetering on the edge of burnout and being broke. The folks who sell tools n' schools ignore us because we teach ourselves and don't have a cushy job in a more lucrative field to afford the latest and greatest gadgets. It's 24/7, no pension and if we're lucky, we retire 2 years before keeling over at the bench. Every little achievement might take twice as long but it's worth every minute and five times as sweet.

Hey Chris

I hope you never get employed writing job descriptions in the newspaper.

Cheers
Andrew

Christopher Malouf said:

These are the engravers who I admire and respect most. The guy in the trenches who engraves all day for others and then, when he is sick of looking at a graver by the end of the week, picks it back up to engrave for himself and improve.

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Chris, I think you are describing just about every professional engraver. Like I said before, we can and should always try and improve our skills and no matter what level we engrave at this is possible.

John B. said:

Most of the Masters will and do say that they have never done anything that they could not improve upon reflection. But they still deserve and enjoy an attaboy.

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Never a truer word spoken, trust you to come up with it John, LOL!

Regarding the critique button, well, I'm happy to abide by the rules but I don't think it does anyone any good if poor work is put up without the critique request button and all that can be seen on the thread is "Attaboy's". It matters not who it comes from. All it does is to lower the individual's personal attainment value and, as we are supposed to be educating the public as to what makes good engraving, any casual browser or person who might be interested in engraving who is viewing a poor example could be fooled into thinking it's a good piece because all the engravers are saying how great it is.

No, there is nothing wrong in praising effort and I'm 100% with you on that John but that must be stated in the reply. If the original poster only gets Attaboy's then it does nothing to make them want to improve or guide them where something is clearly incorrect. And deliberately not pushing the Critique Request button is clearly wrong.

However, I do wholeheartedly agree with what has been said about finished work and clients who may be watching the thread. In this case a PM might be preferable. But then again, don't think the client is a mug or someone that knows nothing about engraving. They might not be an engraver but some know an awful lot about the subject as do hunters. Put an incorrect wing or feather shape on a bird and they'll pick it up very quickly.

So really, my view is that all practice pieces put on public view should be open to critique no matter what so long as the aim is to help the poster improve what he/she are doing and finished pieces (unless critique is specifically asked for) should be for viewing only/educational purposes.

Critique is never meant to shoot someone down in flames or to hurt someone's feelings. It should always be there to help someone improve. So if you don't know what you are talking about often it's better to keep quiet than to think you must say something. That being said, if something is glaringly obvious, even to a rank beginner, don't feel you must keep quiet; it is always worth commenting on but may be better if it's in the form of a question e.g. "Is that feather on the right wing supposed to be like that?" Or, "Why have you put in so many overlapping scrolls? To my mind it looks a little messy or confused."

Just my point of view for what it's worth.

Marcus Hunt said:

Chris, I think you are describing just about every professional engraver.

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Almost Marcus .... I'm only talking about the full time, professional engravers whose only source of income is from what they move off the bench.


You crack me up Andrew ... I'm sure Jay Leno would love 'em.

Marus, your "point of view for what it's worth" is worth a lot to me.
You pointed on a important one, if we are only able to say; because the critique request button was not pushed : great, looks nice good job, then those who want to learn will get confused.
It is even happening now. Bunic's tread about his Spruced up CCW received just two comments. Now Andrew in my opinion criticised it quite hard.
On Steve Lindsay's forum, Bunic started the same tread, and there everyone likes this work.
Yes I know, Steve is Steve's, that is why I barely look at it as this way of having a forum does not teach much.

And here is what Andrew says in this tread that Sam startedBunic........people will help when time and energy permits. It's a busy time of year. Plus you will have to start posting better photos. At the moment it's very hard to see exactly what you have done.

Perhaps there is something wrong with my eyes or my computer screen, but if you take a look at Martin' s tread showing finished guns every one is saying what a great material for study, And for Andrew the size of this photos is no problem to see.
And yes, I know how Martin's work looks like, so by looking at his nine photos I can imagine they are great. But to be honest, I can't even can't see or find the backbone in his work, just to small photos.

Yesterday already I wanted to point on that to Martin, but just in time I could shut my mouth. As indeed, Martin did not push the critique request button.

Another thing I would like to know is: does critique request means only pointing on things that could be done better, or is critique also telling someone: oh, you did the background in a well integrated way, the backbone in the design is so surprising, different from the major rules, Oh great scene, this is the first time I see some dead birds in a scene! Or is that not critique?
Just asking because you know English not my primary language, and as I learned even British English is different from American English.

So in my opinion there is only one way to please everyone, that we all should use our common sense, as rules only will not work and will turn down the quality of this Café.
And I know what a Café is, and most of the time not all the people have the same point of view, and that is why they go there, besides the beer of course, as in the end they are happy sharing their point of view.

arnaud

Lots of good comments and ideas here. Personnaly, I like the Critique
Request option, it gives some of us a recognized way to solicit help. I
see this and other forums I participate in like Playgrounds, Dog
Parks and Workplaces of Life. There are RULES & GUIDELINES, written or unwritten,
some abide some prefer to bend or ignore. There will be a mix of personalities
from Buddies to Bullies, Leaders to Followers. Those that accept the
culture of the Playground stay and play, others watch from the sidewalk or
just leave. Unfortunately sometimes it comes to "You Pee in the Pool", you're outta
here! Thanks to all for this valuable forum.

For the record, the Critique Request prefix option was put in place so a member can advise everyone that he/she is seeking help and critique. It doesn't mean that critique isn't allowed on other threads.

All I ask is that everyone use common sense and be polite. There's nothing unreasonable or difficult about that. And if someone WANTS critique, either use the Critique Request prefix or put C&C Welcome in your signature, or make it known in your post that you're seeking help and advice.

Bunic's thread with CCW in the subject line confused me at first, and maybe did others as well. "C&C Welcome" should do the trick.

Also keep in mind that just because you seek critique doesn't guarantee that you'll get as much as you like. I can't speak for everyone, but I can't read or comment on every forum post. I do what I can as time permits, as do others. Plus it's the holiday season and many of us are enjoying festivities with family and friends.

sam said:

For the record, the Critique Request prefix option was put in place so a member can advise everyone that he/she is seeking help and critique. It doesn't mean that critique isn't allowed on other threads.

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Sam, OK that makes sense I think. I thought critique, wetter praising ones work into the sky or pointing on something that could improve the work and help all of us, only is allowed when there is the critique request prefix.

So this means there are rules, but as long we use our common sense we don't have to follow the rules. And so even when one does not pushed the critique request button, we still can point on some that could be better?

Fine for me, as in a way that means noting has changed, there is only one button added to explicit ask for critique.

But how about those who show a work that already has a client then?, how can we know that?

Or am I missing something?

arnaud

Arnaud: If someone asks for critique then feel free to offer it. If someone does not ask for critique then assume that they don't want it. The polite and courteous thing to do is contact them privately if you are unsure. For some reason this subject has become unnecessarily complicated and I hope this helps everyone understand.

Holiday cheers / ~Sam

Maybe there should be a button that specifies,"No Critiqes,please".:thumbs up:mike

Also use common sense when posting pics.mike

Yes Sam, I understand now, thank you for your patience.

arnaud

Really, 4 pages on this subject? Maybe there should be a "How to use common sense..." section in the tips....of course I am joking!