Critique thread - post your opinions here

Sam · Dec 13, 2010

Arnaud Van Tilburgh said:
This forum did a great job before introducing the â€œcritique requestâ€ button, so why changing the rules when it went wrong one time?

Iâ€™m also convinced, that the less helping critique there is, the more boring this forum will be.

Personally, I don't see a problem with the critique button.

You make some interesting points Arnaud, but as Andrew said, it's common courtesy not to offer critique unless we know it's welcomed by the person who posted the photo. Some engravers want critique and advice and some do not.

Right now there are three options: 1.) The critique button when starting a new thread. 2.) Asking for critique when posting a photo of your work, and 3.) putting C&C WELCOME in your signature, subject line, or in a post.

Whoever uploads a photo to the forum as 100% control over whether or not they receive critique.

~Sam

Harpuahound · Dec 13, 2010

I do think the person posting should have control over the type of responses he is looking for. Congratulations vs Critique or both. But Arnaud struck on a vital point in my mind. I am here to learn. This is class time for me. Attaboys are great, and its a thrill for a part-timer like me to here it from the people I respect the most in the field of engraving. But a tip on how I could do better, well thats gold! I will ask for critiques or select a prefix or whatever but critiques are WHY I COME TO THE FORUM. I can get attaboys all day long from non engravers.

C&C encouraged!

FANCYGUN · Dec 13, 2010

Sam
I think the way the system works right now is just fine. It does not take much effort on an individuals part to request a critique for a posting. All of your options for requesting a critique still boils down to a person asking for one.
Now there are still a few reasons why an individual might find it necessary to make a critique on someones work. For the most part it is the comraderie in helping a friend out by pointing out something that might slip under the radar and would make a big difference. While others truly like to show off and impress people with their brilliance. In either case, it should be done with style and grace be it on this public forum or PM's.

Sam · Dec 13, 2010

We've all seen attaboys and most of us have given them a time or two. Sometimes it's a pat on the back meant for encouragement. Sometimes we see someone post "great job!" on a job that's very poorly done. Sometimes the person giving the "great job!" comment honestly thinks it's a great job when it might not be. We're all here to learn together. That's what this forum is about. That includes how to recognize good work from bad and also how to critique.

Is the Cafe less educational by allowing the person who did the work to specify whether or not they welcome critique? I think not.

~Sam

Peter E · Dec 13, 2010

sam said:
We've all seen attaboys and most of us have given them a time or two. Sometimes it's a pat on the back meant for encouragement. Sometimes we see someone post "great job!" on a job that's very poorly done. Sometimes the person giving the "great job!" comment honestly thinks it's a great job when it might not be. We're all here to learn together. That's what this forum is about. That includes how to recognize good work from bad and also how to critique.

Is the Cafe less educational by allowing the person who did the work to specify whether or not they welcome critique? I think not.

~Sam

I agree on ALL points made and don't think changes are needed.

Admittedly, I have given some "attaboys" that DID look good to me, but were subsequently criticized by those that have more experience. I then decided to leave the "technical" analysis to the pros.

fegarex · Dec 13, 2010

Sam,
I think what you have is fine. No matter what you add, someone will be offended or take something wrong. There are people that "should" ask for critique and don't/won't and there are those that "shouldn't" give critique as well. But, if common sense and courtesy are used the forum will go on. I've seen some fantastic advice given here over the years and I have seen some really bad advice given as well. Each person will need to sort out that info on their own.

BES · Dec 13, 2010

Hi All!

Hi All!
The button is necessary or isn't necessary?
Question simply as at Shakespeare!

At a forum of 3 000 members
All participants have different level of skill
The various equipment and tools!

To compare work of the beginner
With work of the great master simply silly!

All it is clear that my works can't be compared
With works Phil Cogan

When I expose the work
I don't apply that all will start to faint
In the fulness of the heart!

But thus, I am absolutely assured,
That if, the great master will want to specify to me
On my errors, I will be grateful to it for that,
That it has spent the time and I have specified to me in what isn't right!

If at whom that too weak nerves,
And he considers itself(himself) as the genius though only yesterday has taken the tool in hand!

Then let at once writes
â€” Praise me to me it is pleasant when me praise!!! â€”

Eric S. Brezhitsky

scroughstock · Dec 13, 2010

Sam,
From a beginners perspective I think what you have is fine. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would not welcome constructive criticism.

Whether or not they selected the button. In any form of caft work or art people are going to criticize the piece. Whether they know anything about it or not. The most important part is that any of critique must be "constructive" and not meant to tear someone down personally.

When I post something on the forum I am personally offended if I don't receive a critique as if what I am working on does not matter to anyone enough to offer help or criticism. So, if I should ever forget to select the critique request I ask that if you have an opinion on my subject matter feel free to blow it up as long as it is not me personally.

If you do feel it necessary to critique me personally let me get you started with a few of the more common adjectives used to describe me; thick headed, stubborn, brutish, and slow. Those are the ones the wife used this morning.

Thanks,
Shane

Arnaud Van Tilburgh · Dec 13, 2010

Now there is a critique button, before that the forum did work as well.
In my opinion this critique request button is added because some critique wasn’t fair or not welcome.
The majority never had problems with critique, so why do they now have to push a button to ask for critique. To me it makes more sense that those who do not want critique push a button, as I think they have the minority.

And you could ask, what is the difference. I think there is a big difference. You have to ask yourself: why do I show my work? Do I want to learn? Only if you think you are the GURU, okay then of course you are also stupid but you may also push the no comment button. And one thing for sure, one can fool everyone, but never himself, unless he/she is stupid. So most of the time we now where we could improve. But sometimes we didn't see until one is pointing on it.

Of course there is no work that could not be done better, both on design and cutting skills. There is also personal preference like more or less contrast etc. But by sharing and talking about our different preferences on style etc, I think we all could take advantage, even the GURU’s. And sure I’m not referring to the master engravers.
But you, the master engravers, don’t you need constructive critique as well? I would think so, perhaps even from a novice.
As now some of you just help others. Yes you perhaps learn how to teach and looking at novice work, it could inspire you.

So if you change the critique request button to a non critique request button, this would make it easier for masters to be treaded equal in this CafÃ©, as I think no master engraver ever will push the critique request button.

Of course critique has to be constructive, and yes there are stupid and no polite people. But we all have a brain so use it. Rules will never solve anything.

So Sam is giving three options, I would prefer the fourth, having a “non critique request button”

arnaud

fegarex · Dec 13, 2010

Chris,
You bring up a good point of a finished customer job as opposed to a practice plate or piece. Needless to say the client may be a member of the forum! In this case comments of the negative type don't give him a warm fuzzy feeling...
That said, I looked back at your post of the Colt revolver and I did not see any negative comments. Perhaps you got some via e-mail or PM? Still, I would hate to think you would quit posting judging from the response you got from the Colt. People can look at the photos and learn from them. After all, if all the posts were just practice plates it wouldn't help much.
Let's hope the members can be polite and respectful and only give advice if it is asked for.

Lee · Dec 13, 2010

I may have posted these thoughts on another post in times past nevertheless, I think they are worth reviewing. The words critique and criticism are often used interchangably and in my opinion do not belong on the same page. It might be easier to understand my intent by replacing critique with the word evaluate or evaluation.

A proper critique has three parts; the good, the bad, and the other possibiities. The Good-It's just as important for one to know what works in a design as it is to know what is not working so well. Only by knowing can one repeat the good things. It is common to instinctively or by just plain dumb luck to get some things right and have no idea how it came about.
The Bad- If something really does not work the engraver needs to know it and be taught why.
The Other Possibilities- While occasionally something may need to be changed or avoided, another option is to suggest...another option. Some things may be ok but to explore other options is a great teaching tool. Other options may or may not be used on the piece being evaluated but, will creep into the mind on future projects.

It has been pointed out that the timing of an evaluation is a factor. Once the piece is finished and client bound it can potentially damage the engraver. This could happen if the word somehow got back to the client regarding critical comments about his/her piece. I don't think a lot of collectors pay attention to this forum but it is a possibility and may be a reason some resist comments. On the other hand if it is a practice piece or a work in progress that can benefit from some useful advice, it is a much different matter.

Whether one chooses to receive a critique is very much a personal matter. I understand why one would choose to not show work on this or any forum and it is my loss. I do not often comment but I enjoy the peek and lament the lost opportunity to be inspired.

Lee · Dec 13, 2010

I see that Rex covered some of my thoughts. It's nice to think that I may be partially in step with the brilliant minds that lurk hereabouts.

fegarex · Dec 13, 2010

OK lee, I now owe you a big glass of milk in Reno!

Actually, you covered it much better.
I would also like to point out here that while I am an "old dog" in this game, I'm not a "big dog" in it but have seen others grow. I happen to remember this skinny quiet guy from Idaho come and get evaluation from whoever he could. It didn't take him long to put all of that into fantastic work! All of this was before forums but the principal is still the same.

John B. · Dec 13, 2010

Nobody asked for my opinion on this but I have one. The way the forum is set up is just fine.
What is the problem with making a tactful PM contact if you see something posted by someone you care about and they did not ask for critique?
Then, if they see a value in your comment they can decide whether to post it for the whole membership to benefit and share.
Also, if their client is looking in no one is embarrassed.

As far as attaboys go, letâ€™s remember that without a little encouragement some people wonâ€™t stick around long enough to keep practicing and get really good. You are not saying the work is perfect; you are just praising the effort expended.
Most of the Masters will and do say that they have never done anything that they could not improve upon reflection. But they still deserve and enjoy an attaboy.

Without some praise and/or critique there would be some very short threads.

Just my rambling.

TyG · Dec 13, 2010

As a new engraver that is geographically challenged in trying to learn in a first hand capacity, I find this forum to be indispensible for my progress ( however slow) as an engraver.

Each piece of critique given allows me to identify things I have perceived as good and how they can be made better when viewed through more experienced ( or other less experienced) eyes.

It saddens me to think I will not be seeing any more of Chris Malouf's work here, as it shows a different perspective to the work being produced and the greater range of styles I can see the better for my advancement.

I check this forum at least 3 times a day to see what is new and the opinions given by all, and this is what I hope will mold me into a better engraver.

I know that the rest of the Aussie engravers use this forum in the same way and it is one of the best teaching tools available to us down here.

Ty

TyG · Dec 13, 2010

Oh and feel free to give any advice to my posts, I promise you won't hurt my feelings.

Bunic · Dec 13, 2010

When it comes to getting critiques from this forum, "It really matters who you are more than anything else..." (from a previous commenter).

This past weekend I posted my first 'Critique Request' since last spring. It is for my first complete gun, a little Ruger LCP. I thought posting it over the weekend would encourage more input. So far, I've had 287 views and only two critiques.

Sam, You're doing a great job at administering this site so noobies and the Big Dogs could all benefit - this thread is another example of your sincere efforts.

However, not everyone is of that mindset.

Ron P. Nott constantly encouraged everyone. When I continually made the same mistakes - he encouraged me. When my practice plates were horrible - he encouraged me. Even when I couldn't understand some simple concept that he was trying to pour into my thick head - he always encouraged me.

It takes more than mastering scrolls, cuts and bulino to be a Master Engraver.

Ron P. Nott was a Master Engraver.

Andrew Biggs · Dec 13, 2010

I agree with John B......the way it's working now is just fine.

My thoughts are well documented about all this so I won't repeat it here.

As the great prophet once said...........

"Seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall receive" ................just don't ask for more hair because I've tried that, and it doesn't work

Cheers
Andrew

Bunic........people will help when time and energy permits. It's a busy time of year. Plus you will have to start posting better photos. At the moment it's very hard to see exactly what you have done.

eastslope · Dec 13, 2010

I like to post here because I feel my work may influence someone else much in the same way everyone else's work has influenced mine. It might negatively influence other people's work, but I can't express how much the critique thing has aided me, especially when I was trying to learn the transition bright cut stuff. The button hasn't changed much except helped emphasize that people were directly looking for some advice.

diandwill · Dec 13, 2010

I love this forum!!!

I am not Sam Alfano, Phil Coggan, Marcus Hunt, Lee, Rex, Chris or any of another dozen or more who's engraving I completely enjoy. I love seeing how Arnaud has progressed. I am thankful to have a place to occasionally post my engravings. I will probably never be any of the world's greatest engravers. I am too busy trying to survive, to make a living, and my engraving is aimed at being good, not neccesarily great, and fast. I do try to improve with each and every project, but, let's face it, when your'e engraving earrings that sell at 25% off of $79/pr, there's not much time to be fancy. But I still like an occasional atta boy, and I even accept honest critique, as long as THEY understand my aims.
All that being said, Thank You Sam!!! for such a wonderful place to visit, and learn, and share. Thank you so very, very much.
Will Bockemuehl,
http://bockemuehljewelers.com
:beerchug:

Critique thread - post your opinions here

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator

Elite Cafe Member

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Chief Administrator & Benevolent Dictator

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Elite Cafe Member

Member

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Lifetime Pledge Member

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

Moderator

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Elite Cafe Member

Sponsors