Time to introduce myself

Hello all of you members of this forum

after reading the reactions of a lot of you in Arnauds thread "Thieves visited my shop", I become ashamed I haven't introduced myself earlier.

I'm Jeroen, I'm Arnauds son-in-law. I've been around here for some time, without being 'active'. I've been reading all your threads and the reactions, learning a lot that way, and discussing things of the forum with Arnaud.
As I was a real novice in engraving and fine crafts, more experienced in technics, cars, welding ,the 'big stuff' etc, I didn't feel experienced enough to contribute tot the forum.

Now I feel that I should have been more active; not because I have become 'good' in engraving (I learned a lot, but I'm not full-time on it), but because I experienced this forum is really more than a way to teach and to learn. It is a real "Engraver's Café", where engravers can tell their engraving-related stories, where they are being helped and comforted.

Reading among the reactions "Arnaud's 'free' instruction has been of immense worth to many of us." , I fully agree (and in my case not only concerning engraving), and I understand and see, here also, it's a matter of giving and receiving. A matter I want to form part of in both ways.
So from now on, if I like what you're showing or doing or telling, I'll let you know. Also if I don't like it and why

So thank you all, active members, for what I learned from you, and thank you for what you mean (especially at this moment) to Arnaud!

Welcome Jeroen, look forward to your input. Ty

Welkom Jeroen en veel plezier op het forum.
You lucky guy !!!!! having Arnaud as a father in law, all engravers wish to have a father in law like him.....
Willem

Nice to meet you in the Café too Jeroen.
You made a good decision joining in.

regards, arnaud

Jeroen,

Welcome aboard!!

Neat stuff! Welcome aboard!

Greetings and welcome!!!!

Jeroen,

Welcome from me as well. I think this is a good opportunity to say some things I have been thinking about for some time now.

First I think that everyone has something to contribute no matter what level. A beginner who posts their work for critique does everyone a service because as they get critiques everyone else learns.

I feel that ever since the critique requested button has been enacted. which only allows us to give one if requested has turned the forum into what most forums turn into because of restrictions. It become an attaboy service or post something if you want a pat on the back or your ego stroked.

People now can't and are afraid to say something that might be very useful to the person who did the work as well as the others viewing. For example. the posting of the first bulino. It was of course absolutely a fantastic job and for the first one I can't imagine where they will be when they keep progressing. But, someone said that the hair was competing with the scroll and they are ABSOLUTLEY CORRECT ! That doesn't mean the work isn't less than what it is a beautiful job. It also doesn't mean that the person who said it was saying the work was bad in anyway. In fact they said it was great. That little point though would make a difference in the overall piece.

There are a number of works as of late that if allowed to could use some constructive criticism. When I had myself and two apprentices here at the studio when one of us would finish a piece we would take a picture and put it on the screen and begin to tear it to shreds. we would pick out everything that was wrong or could have been better etc... This included my work. I still do this to myself because I am never happy with anything I do when finished. i think a lot of us experience that.

I guess that the problems occur when someone makes a comment and doesn't know how to do a proper critique or the word chosen aren't the best ones to use. I remember when Marcus Hunt came to the knife forum and started to critique work everyone was up in arms I even thought why is he being like that. I remember even defending Andrew once because Marcus said something about his work and I said well he has just started engraving so at his level it was good. After getting to know Marcus and the fact that he speaks a different language than most of us English as he would say proper English, which is not an insult it's the way it is said. I went to have a beer with him one time in Kansas and he asked the waitress if they had any proper beer. He wasn't being a smart Alec he meant do you have any good quality beer not just the light beer that they serve there. To a person not knowing it sounded like he was being a wise crack. Not long ago when he made a critique about someones work it started a big to do about nothing. He decided not to do any more. Everyone was disappointed because they learned so much from his critiques. they started writing saying don't do that . It was after that that the new critique request was added.

My point is I love seeing all the wonderful work here. and most of it doesn't need a lot of pages saying that's very nice. We all know it is.

My question is . What can be done to make it possible to be able to get back to making things something to learn from ? I don't profess to have the answer I am asking for idea's.

I don't feel my work is above constructive criticism. Maybe one answer would be to figure out a format for critique for everyone to use. I know that in many art programs at colleges and universities they do open critiques, so maybe a form type of critique could be followed. Just a thought.

At the end of the day though I will say that it really doesn't matter what I think or anyone else thinks about a works. As long as the customer likes it and is willing to pay what you are asking that's all that matters. I also know that not everyone is going to like my work. We all have different tastes and just because I like it doesn't mean the next will.

Chris

Christian DeCamillis said:

First I think that everyone has something to contribute no matter what level. A beginner who posts their work for critique does everyone a service because as they get critiques everyone else learns.

I feel that ever since the critique requested button has been enacted. which only allows us to give one if requested has turned the forum into what most forums turn into because of restrictions. It become an attaboy service or post something if you want a pat on the back or your ego stroked.

Click to expand...

I know my opinion really doesn't matter much. And, to keep myself from putting my foot in my mouth on a daily basis I won't say anything a lot of the time. But...

Everyone does like to get a well-deserved "attaboy" now and then. It makes all of the work worthwhile. Especially when it's coming from your peers. I do think that they get said all too often when they aren't well-deserved. This is probably because some people are thin skinned and their feelings would get hurt. So, out of politeness, they get told they are doing well and the end result is very little was learned from a hollow critique and they go on practicing the bad habits.

I think it would be a lot better to find out from the experts early on that you're doing a really crappy job of it :beat up: rather than to go on thinking otherwise because you got a whole bunch of attaboys.

A fake attaboy is about as worthless as Monopoly play money.

Anyway... that's my two cents worth.

Willem Parel said:

Welkom Jeroen en veel plezier op het forum.
You lucky guy !!!!! having Arnaud as a father in law, all engravers wish to have a father in law like him.....
Willem

Click to expand...

I agree, Willem!
Over here, there's a saying: you can't choose where you were born, but you can choose where/who you marry
I am a lucky boy, having such a father-in-law, and most of all: being together with his daughter for over 17 years now. (and that's way longer than he's engraving)

Doc, Of course your opinion means something. Here's why. You are a beginner and if you feel that way and say it, then a hundred are thinking it. Besides everyone's opinion counts beginner master it doesn't matter. I learn from beginner's all the time to say that I have nothing to learn is ludacris. If a customer gave an opinion who knows nothing except that they either do or don't like it. We would listen carefully because they are the ones who pay for it.

Having the recognition of our peers is good but they don't pay your bills. So their opinions ans expertise are helpful in developing better skills , designs etc... and giving a critique without a resource or an example to learn from is worthless that only makes it an opinion. There are many here who take the time to do that and even make drawings etc.. to help. Andrew is one who comes to mind he always gives examples when he critiques.

Maybe that's the answer maybe the rule should be that if you want to critique something it's OK to do so as long as you provide example drawing or whatever to make it a learning experience. That way the critique has substance not just here's what i think. Show us why draw the changes take the time to help nit just criticism.

Maybe with other suggestions we can formulate something that's agreeable with Sam after all he is the one who can and should have the final say.

Chris

Glad to see you here. Always good to have another to learn from. You sure lucked out on this one. I would love to have someone that close, and that good, to learn from.

I agree with whats been said on critiques. As a real "Newbie" who has just about finished a place to work, I forsee myself putting up a new practice piece for opinions, and although an "attaboy" is good for the ego, and is a good tool to prod someone to continue, it should not be used loosely. If I make some mistakes, I like some one pointing them out to me, before I continue making them, and it becomes a habit. Even if its decent, but there is a better way, I want to hear about it.

My 2 cents worth..

Christian DeCamillis said:

and giving a critique without a resource or an example to learn from is worthless that only makes it an opinion. There are many here who take the time to do that and even make drawings etc.. to help. Andrew is one who comes to mind he always gives examples when he critiques.
...as long as you provide example drawing or whatever to make it a learning experience. That way the critique has substance not just here's what i think. Show us why draw the changes take the time to help not just criticism.
Chris

Click to expand...

That was my point too, Chris. Knowing so little about engraving, my comments wouldn't have been more than "waw, I like it." Not very constructive.
In my opinion, when one arrives somewhere, it's good to wait and see how things are done there before trying to move and change things.
But with enough knowledge and skill, everyone should try to point things out and make them better that way.
So we agree on that.

Thanks to all of you for the welcome!

The rule is really simple and a good one. You don't offer critique unless it is asked for.

There is one word that covers this.................propriety. Or in other words, good manners according to established social conventions.

You don't wander around a gun/knife show and unsolicited start telling everyone how their work can be improved. And so it is with the forum. We are in a very public place and have no idea who is reading all this stuff. Perhaps the engravers client is one of those people. It's not our place, or right, to critique everything that comes our way. If the person asks for it then that's fine. Go for it, so long as it's kept respectful and polite.

Sample drawings are great.....if you have the time and inclination to do them!!!!......but that depends entirely on the person critiquing and how much time they have to do so. A lot of the critique is verbal but still a very valid way of doing it. There are a lot of members on the forum that are "computer challenged" and critiquing with drawings would be a hard task for them. Restricting people to drawings would be a real shame and we would lose a lot of good information.

Attaboys are necessary in anyone's development. Praise the good and criticize the mistakes in a constructive way. The carrot and the stick approach is a tried and true method. We have all kinds of people on the forum from the extremely thick skinned to the ultra sensitive.............that is just people being people. Keeping everything in balance is the key.

There are degrees of experience on the forum. A newbie will think anything cut in metal looks great and deserves praise because they can relate to what they are seeing. An engraver that's been around the traps for a while will look at things differently. So you will get varying degrees of views on the work which is fair enough.

There is no requirement for anyone to improve anything. Age, health, motivation, passion, time commitments etc all come into play. Some people are designed to be mediocre all their lives and others are destined to fly. This is just the laws of natural selection. Some people just want to tinker around with what they are doing and are happy with that. Others want to become the best they can be...........both are perfectly legitimate points of view.

If you want critique.................then ask for it.

If you don't want critique...........then don't ask for it.

Simple

Cheers
Andrew

P.S. Welcome to the forum Jeroen!!

First, welcome to the Cafe' Jeroen! I really like see international craftsmen and artists participating here. Since most of the dialog is in English, I especially appreciate all of you who use another primary language taking the time and effort to express your thoughts in English. Most of us in America are impressed by the way Europeans can speak several languages. It seems that Belgians are especially multi-lingual.

For those who don't have English, a good internet translator like Word Monkey will do. None of us care if your English is perfect because this forum is about engraving not English grammar.

As to the issue of critiques, while Chris has raised some good points, I tend to feel that Andrew has done a fine job of summing up the issue. Especially "We are in a very public place and have no idea who is reading all this stuff. Perhaps the engravers client is one of those people." With thousands of members on this forum you can bet that there are many patrons, clients, and afficinados who are not engravers viewing these threads. I know this to be a fact as I know some of them.

CRB

Hello Jeroen!
I'd like to welcome you, too! As you already know, you are in the right place here.
I hope to see some of your work soon - looking forward to it
Regards, Mario.

Hi Jeroen, welcome to the Café. There certainly is a wealth of information that is shared on this forum and none of us are above learning something new, no matter how experienced an engraver we might be.

I'm not sure whether Chris' and Andrew's comments should really be a part of this thread; perhaps it should be a part of a new one? (just my thoughts that's all). But as we're here I'd like to add my 2 penny worth. Both of you make excellent observations and comments and I can see both sides and where each of you are coming from.

I'm not a perfect engraver, in fact there has never been one, ever! We are all human and all make mistakes. We need praise to survive in this game, believe me! But we also need guidance if we ever hope to improve. Our mission should be that every piece of work we produce should try to be better than the last. Okay, there are mediocre and poor engravers but even they should not be content to stand still. Everyone can improve.

I was always gobsmacked by the stuff my father produced but (and I bet Phil Cogan will back me on this) I think some of his best work ever was in the last few years. 60 years engraving and every year he just got better!!!! When I was younger his critique of my work, although constructive, often didn't contain enough praise which could really hurt after spending a couple of hundred hours on something, I can tell you. Perhaps because my father was also my gaffer it hurt more, I don't know. My sister (who was also an engraver at the time) and I confronted him with this one day. This criticism had gone on for many years and one day we just snapped and we had it out amongst ourselves. And you know what? He listened to us and he changed the way he offered his guidance. As a consequence I was far more eager to learn and produce better stuff.

I have been engraving now for nearly 33 years and a few years ago at a Grand Masters weekend John B pulled me aside and told me how he thought I could improve my scenes. Chris was there and also came in on the conversation. I think John was a bit scared of upsetting me but far from it. I took his, and Chris', input and used it to my advantage. What they said was so simple and basic that I use their advice every time I engrave a scene now. AND, I am incredibly grateful for the critique they gave me. It was unsolicited. I didn't ask for or want their input into my work but I am so pleased they did so.

Likewise, Chris once posted some pictures of his work which were great and everybody was giving him the deserved ATABOY's! But there was something that bugged me about it. So rather than being attacked for giving unsolicited advice (that everyone could have gained from) I bit my tongue knowing I was going to see him in KS. Stupidly I thought I might have to nurse Chris' ego through my critique but nothing could've been further from how it was. It was only a small thing but he was like a sponge and absorbed the information readily. The next work he posted had been altered accordingly which made me smile. He wasn't above learning. Like all good engravers he wanted more.

Sometimes, when you climb towards the top of the ladder (and I'm nowhere near being there yet) people think you have nothing more to learn and might feel intimidated to say anything which might appear derogatory. But sometimes we can learn just by listening to what people think. They don't necessarily have to be an expert either; often they just need to be a fresh pair of eyes and honest in their opinion. Of course you have to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff on their feedback but sometimes someone with no real knowledge can say something which will make you think about how you might tackle something in the future. All the ATABOY's in the world won't do that.

A few months ago someone put up an engraving of a duck which I unwittingly critiqued. From the flaming I got from some quarters it certainly has made me think twice when it comes to giving critique freely. It was a shame because the engraver involved actually PMed me to say thank you for the critique. It is a shame because when I can blatantly see something screaming out at me "WRONG!" I now just shrug my shoulders and move on to the next thread. What seems to have been forgotten is that some engravers that don't have English as a first language might not necessarily understand the prefixes that now have to be applied. So who loses out in the end???

But as the rules are the rules we must abide by them and I can see a reason for it but I do think, as Chris points out, that something is also lost.

Sorry Jeroen, I didn't mean to hijack your thread. Please do not feel intimidated by being a novice. Posting pictures of your work AND asking for critique will give others the chance to learn our art as well. Just look how far Arnaud has come since he joined us!

Hi Marcus

I agree with everything you are saying about critique. You have no arguments with me there and I think most right minded people would totally agree with you.

But

There is a time and place for it.................."John B pulled me aside and told me how he thought I could improve my scenes" Therein lies exactly what we are talking about and the very crux of the matter. "John B pulled me aside" is the key words in that sentence.

There is a time and a place for everything and that includes critiquing. John didn't burst into the middle of the room and tell everyone and sundry how you could improve your work. He took you aside and quietly talked to you about it. In other words, he exercised a bit of good old fashioned discretion.


If anyone has a really strong burning desire to critique someone else's work.................and it's unsolicited. Then simply e-mail that person privately and give them your thoughts on the matter.

Otherwise show a little discretion and wait till the person asks for a public critique. It's called good manners.

Cheers
Andrew

Why not do what's done on some of the photography forums? In some members' signatures they have:

C&C welcome (comments & critique welcome)
Image editing OK (allows others to edit submitted photos and re-upload showing how they would improve the photo)

One guy's signature says "if you can't do better then don't critique my photos". I get a kick out of that one!

While we don't need image editing feedback, the C&C Welcome can be added to a post or added as part of the signature so it's on every post. That way everyone will know it's ok to critique.

I wish there was a perfect way of handling this where everyone would be happy, but when you have over 4,000 members there's nothing that I or anyone else can do to make this agreeable with everyone.

Cheers / ~Sam

Marcus Hunt said:

A few months ago someone put up an engraving of a duck which I unwittingly critiqued. From the flaming I got from some quarters...

Click to expand...

My dad always said that the eye only sees what it's trained to see. I benefited from that particular critique as did countless others. What looked like some darned nice ducks at first turned into what could very well be a lifelong lesson for some. I hadn't noticed that the feathers weren't properly overlapped. They were shown on the under side of the wing as they should have been from the top side. Once you mentioned the feathers it jumped at me.

So, you can bet that every time I look at various engraved birds I look at how the feathers overlap each other.

It reminds me of a Mexican onyx carving my grandpa had years ago. Whoever it was that carved it got so involved with the carving that they didn't notice how one hoof was carved in reverse.

So, Mr. Hunt, your critique didn't go completely to waste. :thumbs up: