The Engravers Engraver (Scrolls/Shading) Nimschke Engraving
- Thread starter mdengraver
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Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Mr. Madis is a recognized expert and author on the subject of Winchesters...not engraving. I have looked at this site before and it is my studied opinion that these guns were not engraved by LDN, despite the signature.
When a gun is signed N, LN, LDN, or Nimschke it is immediately suspicious unless it is documented by a print in the Nimschke book. In this case, though the engraver was trying to copy Nimschke's style he or she missed the boat on the fine points and some of the characteristics.
I could probably write another book on what to look for to detect fake Nimschke's but I won't do it here. There is a book by the late Dr. Harris entitled Gun Engraving as Decorative Art that gives some details as to the cuts and progress marks but doesn't speak to style and characteristic traits which is what I look at. Many collector "experts" are easily fooled by the use of characteristic motifs such as "fans", "shells", "bat wings", "twist motifs", and "nick & dot" borders. Most of the engravers on this site can duplicate those motifs but it is difficult to duplicate Nimschke's techniques.
Several other Cafe' members have experience looking at documented Nimschke's so I'm interested in their assessment.
CRB
When a gun is signed N, LN, LDN, or Nimschke it is immediately suspicious unless it is documented by a print in the Nimschke book. In this case, though the engraver was trying to copy Nimschke's style he or she missed the boat on the fine points and some of the characteristics.
I could probably write another book on what to look for to detect fake Nimschke's but I won't do it here. There is a book by the late Dr. Harris entitled Gun Engraving as Decorative Art that gives some details as to the cuts and progress marks but doesn't speak to style and characteristic traits which is what I look at. Many collector "experts" are easily fooled by the use of characteristic motifs such as "fans", "shells", "bat wings", "twist motifs", and "nick & dot" borders. Most of the engravers on this site can duplicate those motifs but it is difficult to duplicate Nimschke's techniques.
Several other Cafe' members have experience looking at documented Nimschke's so I'm interested in their assessment.
CRB
DakotaDocMartin
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Well, that's good enough for me. I'd saved it off as a PDF. It's now been turned into recycled electrons. :big grin:
When Nimschke passed away his family took any guns or gun parts on his work bench and through every thing in New York's east river because of the Sullivan law.Gun laws even back then were strict and still are in the city. J.J.
there are always those willing to waste their time and mis-guided talent to replicate the work of past masters. what a pity, when , with a bit of honesty, these individuals might live reasonably well doing things the right way.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Roger, did Nimschke ever actually sign his work? At the time none of his contemporaries in the UK would have signed their work.
I think signing engravings on firearms in England was something my father started and it was rather frowned upon by the gun company he was working for at the time. Bear in mind we are now talking about the late 50's early 60's. Harry Kell (my dad's gaffer) certainly didn't sign his work. The amazing thing is there is no way Kell could have engraved half the guns attributed to him but the Kell workshop (i.e. all the engravers working together as a team) could turn a fully engraved gun around in 4 - 5 days.
Did Nimschke work in this manner or was he a one-man outfit?
I think signing engravings on firearms in England was something my father started and it was rather frowned upon by the gun company he was working for at the time. Bear in mind we are now talking about the late 50's early 60's. Harry Kell (my dad's gaffer) certainly didn't sign his work. The amazing thing is there is no way Kell could have engraved half the guns attributed to him but the Kell workshop (i.e. all the engravers working together as a team) could turn a fully engraved gun around in 4 - 5 days.
Did Nimschke work in this manner or was he a one-man outfit?
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Marcus,
Based on a survey of Nimschke's record book, he only signed 35% of his work and that mostly on long guns. He only signed 15% of his handgun commissions. His signatures varied from "N" to "LN" to "LDN" to "Nimschke" to "L. D. Nimschke, Engr." The more elaborate the job the more complete the signature.
Other American engravers did sign their work in the 19th century, particularly John Ulrich and Gustave Young. However Samuel Colt did not alow his factory engravers to sign their work, even on the most elaborate pieces. Thus Young's signatures only appear on his non Colt work. Nimschke was a freelance engraver and was free to sign as he pleased but just didn't take the time to do so on what he considered routine work.
Colt still does not allow engravers to sign on A, B, C, D coverage scroll jobs. Only their master level work gets signed these days.
Roger
Based on a survey of Nimschke's record book, he only signed 35% of his work and that mostly on long guns. He only signed 15% of his handgun commissions. His signatures varied from "N" to "LN" to "LDN" to "Nimschke" to "L. D. Nimschke, Engr." The more elaborate the job the more complete the signature.
Other American engravers did sign their work in the 19th century, particularly John Ulrich and Gustave Young. However Samuel Colt did not alow his factory engravers to sign their work, even on the most elaborate pieces. Thus Young's signatures only appear on his non Colt work. Nimschke was a freelance engraver and was free to sign as he pleased but just didn't take the time to do so on what he considered routine work.
Colt still does not allow engravers to sign on A, B, C, D coverage scroll jobs. Only their master level work gets signed these days.
Roger
tundratrekers@mtaonline.n
Elite Cafe Member
Roger,is that Colt policy to prevent someone from I.D.ing an engraver and trying to commission them to moonlight?Or maybe hire them away from Colt?
mike
mike
In the book by R. L. Wilson about Nimschke, it stated that he did about 5,000 guns in his career for about 100 makers and manufacturers! Never anything mentioned about other engravers working "with" him.
It is one of my most favorite books related to engraving.
My impression was that he was a private man that worked alone...and FAST! Doing the math, 5,000 in 50 years = about two per week
It is one of my most favorite books related to engraving.
My impression was that he was a private man that worked alone...and FAST! Doing the math, 5,000 in 50 years = about two per week
Roger Bleile
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Mike,
I wouldn't want to speculate on Colt's reasons for the policy. If George Spring reads this thread he could give a more informed answer as he has been one of Colt's in-house masters for many years.
Roger
Two Ponies
Member
George Madis
The original George Madis, the man who produced all the books on Winchester rifles has been dead for some years now. Having personally known and talked with him many times at gun shows, and bought his books I know this for a fact. I suspect that the web site is very old and that it is being perpetuated as if he was alive to continue selling his books. Someone is answering questions from the web site to make it appear that George is the one doing the replies. If you look at the bottom of the pages on the web site they are listed as 2001 etc.
The original George Madis, the man who produced all the books on Winchester rifles has been dead for some years now. Having personally known and talked with him many times at gun shows, and bought his books I know this for a fact. I suspect that the web site is very old and that it is being perpetuated as if he was alive to continue selling his books. Someone is answering questions from the web site to make it appear that George is the one doing the replies. If you look at the bottom of the pages on the web site they are listed as 2001 etc.
6gun
Member
I agree with Roger. Having seen a lot of Nimschke's work over the years I can say that it is a poor job of trying to copy one of the best known Masters of the 1800's. ....... George
Roger,
Do you have Herbert Houze's book on Winchester history? I note there is some discussion in it about signed work, including a customer complaint letter and subsequent banning of signatures by Winchester.
For anyone who doesn't have this book, it's in two parts. Part one is history and part two is the Decoration of Winchester Firearms 1865-1981, with work and designs shown of all Winchester's engravers. It's a must have book.
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