Critique Request First English Scroll engraving

This is one of the inexpensive knives that Chris DeCamillis is selling on his website. I have been practicing cutting English Small Scroll on practice plates long enough. So I decided to put an English Bouquet and Scroll on a knife for my brother who's coming down for Thanksgiving. It's not exactly "small scroll", as the scrolls themselves are rather large, but the idea is the same. I must thank Marcus Hunt for his postings and other help, so I could begin to get a grasp on this type of scroll work. I hope it works for you. The knife is about 3.5 inches in length closed and the stainless cut pretty well. There were a couple of hard spots that tended to chip the graver, but all in all, it was a nice canvas to work with.

i think it looks great!

Wow! Nice job of it! :yes

Very nice Mark, I like what you did with the flowers too. And by the way thems my initials so I'll take the knife!

Jim Sackett

Doc Mark said:

inexpensive knives

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Doc Mark said:

it was a nice canvas to work with.

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Doc!!! For the quality of work you are doing, this is a contradiction!!! :big grin:

Time to up the ante and put your valuable work on something of value!!!!

very good work Mark i like it

Really sharp, Doc! Everything looks really pleasing to the eye...

I just won a little spyderco on ebay for $8.15....granted it's a tiny knife but I'm looking forward to trying to execute some English scroll soon. Thanks for the inspiration!

Hi Mark

The thing that strikes me is that it is far too large and out of proportion to your canvas. It has also made the flower work seem too small. So everything is out of balance. English Scroll looks its best when it is surrounded by a lot of other English Scroll, or in conjunction with other forms of scroll.

Unfortunately this has made all your outside work look rather ungainly and it has lost its delicacy.

If you were to fill in areas with a lot more scroll work it would look a lot better and look proportionate to the flowers and the knife.

Cheers
Andrew

as far as "scroll " goes it's real nice. but english scroll i always thought was verysmall and really filled the field.

I really like the Monogram side, refreshingly different. :thumbs up:

it's real nice Mark.

Hi Mark, not a bad attempt. You have the basic understanding but it needs refining. I agree with Andrew's observations about the flowers looking out of balance. If you want bouquet then I would suggest a small, linear posy of perhaps 3 larger flowers (1 rose and 2 cinquefoils) with perhaps some leaves to fill the valleys. You've made a very good attempt at the outside work surrounding the bouquet though.

When it comes to the scrolls be careful of making them too large. Better to have 2 or 3 good small scrolls than one large one. This will help to balance the design. Growing a larger scroll from the starter scroll is a no, no. Very occasionally when laying out a design you might find a particular space is better filled with one slightly larger scroll than two wee ones. This is often lost in the overall design but when it comes to using so few scrolls you must observe this rule or, again, it will look unbalanced.

Thirdly, inside work. Be careful not to let the leaves and tendrils point forwards. you initial cut should curve so that when it meets the spine it is perpendicular to it. Also I think you may have fallen into the "microscope trap". This is when you cram too many leaves and tendrils into a scroll; something that rarely happens if you don't use high powered magnification. Remember that small scroll is supposed to be looked at with the naked eye. As a guide the leaves and tendrils should only be very slightly smaller than the head of the scroll.

Your outside work looks spidery but I think this is only down to lack of confidence. Remember to make the cuts exactly the same way as your inside work and don't make it too long. Exact size that you need is something that comes with experience.

Your shading of the scrolls is excellent.

Overall though it is a good attempt but if you can work on the pointers we've given you I don't think you are far off getting it right as your general cutting, and comprehension of what you are trying to achieve, is there. It's just a case of working on size and scale really. Very well done and keep practicing.

Mark, It's a good first attempt I believe that Marcus is the MAN when it comes to English scroll. There are different styles of English scroll the way I understand them.

Marcus could you give a further explanation as too the styles of English scroll?. I think that you could clear up for everyone that not all English scroll is small.

Mark I'm glad you liked the knife for cutting. The hard spots you experienced are normal on any knife. They are usually where the pins that hold them together are. Because they are presses or peen ed to expand the ends to let them hold ,like a rivet, they become work hardened. I've never had a knife that doesn't have them. The trick is to find out where they are so you can anticipate the point at which you will cut through them. Then if you slow down cutting through them you aren't as likely to chip the graver point.

A good way to locate them is to sand the scales of the knife to an extra fine finish then normally you can see their outline .

You have used these knives in the way I intended . Inexpensive enough for practice, they cut well, It's reality not just a practice plate and then it can at least become a gift. Some people who are buying them are engraving and selling them as well. A friend of mine took a couple of them to see what the rockwell of the blades were and they tested out 58 rockwell consistently. I was even surprised at that.

I'm sure your brother in law will be one happy camper when he receives it. It's not about just the knife but the work that you did. I remember a few years back when a small buck knife like the one GRS sells auctioned at FEGA for 4 or 500 dollars. It was engraved by Ralph Bone, my first engraving instructor by the way and one heck of a human being. Ralph always had time for you. They weren't paying for the knife but the work because of who did it.

So Doc do another and make the adjustments keep doing it till it's perfect. In the mean time you will have some very happy relatives and friends Keep up the good work.

Chris

Thanks for all the kind comments and the honest critiques Andrew and Marcus. Your input is valuable to me. I "knew" that the scrolls were too large for the knife, but I couldn't come up with a design that I liked with more scrolls massed together on such a small canvas. I just can't wrap my mind around the arrangement of the small scrolls within a limited space. I can better understand the concepts on a larger floorplate or sideplate. I now see that the outside work does not need to extend all the way to the edges of the metal and should be more proportionate to the scroll size. I also didn't realize that I was allowing the inner leaf work to point forward. I'll keep an eye out for that next time. You are correct Marcus, I do see what you mean about cramming too many leaves when using a microscope. That was also caused by having the scrolls too large to begin with, so there was too much space to work with within the body of the scroll. I also knew that the bouquet was out of proportion to the scrolls but never thought of just putting three flowers in line. Now that you said it, it makes perfect sense! I'll try another design and try to incorporate all that you said and then see how I do. I've got a belt buckle that I want for myself, so maybe after the holiday madness I will get to work on it.

I agree with Andrew, from an artistic point, the initial side is balanced better, but the flower side is disproportionate. But your cuts are clear and distinct, and this is certainly a great start to english scroll. At any rate, I bet your brother will be thrilled. I would be!

Hi Doc,

Nice knife and a fine gift.......but an old English custom, if I may.
Never give a knife or blade to a friend......or it will cut the friendship.
But the easy cure....you just collect a penny from the happy recipient to avoid this.
That makes it a sale not a gift.

Wishing you a wonderful Thanksgiving.

Doc,

Very Nice Work, I really like the layout.

JT

Thanks John,

I'd never heard of that custom! I'll be sure to make my brother cough-up a penny before he gets the knife!

Have a great Holiday (I hope you've been "Americanized" enough to enjoy Thanksgiving with us Colonists.)

I don’t know much about English scrolls yet, one thing for sure is that the flowers look great and detailed and that the scrolls look a bit hulking compared to the flowers.
In other words, not so well balanced as a unit.

arnaud

John B. said:

Hi Doc,

Nice knife and a fine gift.......but an old English custom, if I may.
Never give a knife or blade to a friend......or it will cut the friendship.
But the easy cure....you just collect a penny from the happy recipient to avoid this.
That makes it a sale not a gift.

Wishing you a wonderful Thanksgiving.

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Yes John, we do that over here too, by accepting a minor coin you are selling the knife, that is the whole idea behind it.

arnaud