Starting up

Hello everybody,

I'm new here and totally new to engraving. I'm an ex computer programmer and would-be blacksmith/bladesmith. Anyone interested can check out my progress in blog. As our (me and my father) main focus will be making knives and swords we also want to engrave them to give our customers best possible quality and beauty. But for buying equipment I'm quite confused and I'd like to get your advice on this matter.

First I looked into GRS System 3, which has very good price level. But as I've read from here that this isn't quite up to the task. Next in price would be GRS GraverMax SC, add to this 901 handpiece and I'm around $1000 in price level. I think I'd survive this. But how good is it?

I've read very good reviews on Lindsay AirGraver. Classic handpiece with foot control is around $1200. That would really be the maximum I could pay, actually it's little more than I could pay, but if it's worth it, then it's worth it. I'm tired of crappy tools. Foot control without controls would save some, but do I need these controls? What do they do?

There are some used GRS engravers up in eBay, but unfortunately their shipment is only in US, I live in Estonia, so it's no good.

What options would you kind people suggest?

Second question. What do you think how long it takes to learn engrave decently, so that the engravings really enhance the looks of 'stuff'? I like to believe that I'm little above average in learning and hand skills and I could dedicate around 20 hours in a week to practice this fine art.

Attached is one of swords we've made and it's just aching for nice engraved patterns.

With best regards,
Viljo

Hello Viljo, and welcome to the Cafe.

This system 3 isn't bad, but the Gravermax SC is a much better unit and the additional cost is definitely worth it. With a 901 handpiece it will serve you very well for many, many years. I believe Rio Grande ships all over the world, so you might check them out. I don't use Lindsay tools, but many Cafe members do. You will find plenty of examples of world class engraving done by both GRS and Lindsay products. If you can, try both and then decide.

It's impossible to say how long it'll take to learn engraving. I can tell you that with instruction you can learn much faster than teaching yourself. If a class is not possible, you have the Cafe members who will help you along the way.

Cheers / ~Sam

Well, Viljo, that is a difficult question and I am sure you will get a few good suggestions. The pneumatic hammer systems will make the learning of engraving steel much, much easier and faster than the old hammer and chisel method so that will be your best bet. I used a Gravermeister from GRS for 30 years and liked it so much I was reluctant to change. But change I did a couple of years ago when I purchased the Classic Airgraver. Boy, what a step up! It has been many years since I tried the Gravermax system so can't give you a comparison of that to the Airgraver but believe either will do you good service.

As to the time to learn??? Everyone takes their own time at this and some are cutting nice work within a year while others take several years. A few...never. One of the best things you can do is to visit with an engraver and get some help if this is remotely possible. Get a copy of James Meek's book The Art of Engraving. Loaded with information. You will also get lots of help from this and other forums, including the knifemakers forum.

Good luck and keep the questions coming. Really nice to hear from you. Regards, Sam Welch.

Viljo, keep in mind that after that blade is hardened & tempered many pro's wont even take the job as its too hard.The crossguard , hilt & other parts are soft enough.
I like the hammer & chisel method, not as easy but i like the hand tools. The tools/ chisels are the same with power/air assist or hammer.
Kent

Viljo, please don't get it into your head that one system is better than the other (GRS v Lindsay); they are just different in the way that they operate. Using or not using one system over the other will not make you a better engraver. I use GRS equipment and love it, so does my father, Sam and Chris Decamillis as well as a host of other world class engravers. Others, like Steve Lindsay and Ray Cover, love their Lindsay system. Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages and there are many threads on this and other forums which will tell you what you may be seeking. But push graver and hammer and chisel will work just as well if you have an aptitude for them.

Briefly, the GRS system (forget System 3 unless you really can't afford anything else, perhaps consider a GraverMate?) needs electricity and an air supply. So does the Lindsay for a compressor unless you plan to run it on CO2 or bottled air in which case extra running costs will have to be built in. The Lindsay has no footprint on the bench, GRS has a box to control things. With GRS you can set your strokes per minute and that is what you get stepping on the pedal equals more power; the Lindsay is more guess work and the speed of the tool increases as you give it more air, so if you want more power you will use higher speeds unless you change to a tungsten piston. This equals more expence. GRS has different handpieces for different jobs and this costs extra. Lindsay uses one......and if you want to cover the whole range two handpieces....not $1500 any more, but in either case this isn't necessary until you really get proficient at engraving. A lot of Lindsay owners will tell you that the only way to go really is with Palm Control and this is 3000 Bucks! GRS are coming out with Airtact which is a way of controlling the graver by hand and thus eliminating the foot pedal all together, it's retro fitable and will cost you $500. GRS have Quick Change holders for gravers, with Lindsay you have to mess about with a little allen key every time you want to change graver. So you see there are advantages and disadvantages with each system and, cost isn't really what it seems. Air assisted tools will cost you a great deal of money but are worth it, but at the end of the day each system works out about the same cost wise. I'd suggest trying both systems first but being in Estonia, unless you travel to the USA, this is impossible.

Remember, tools are a means to an end and not an end in themselves.

Viljo, I don't know Where Marcus Gets his Info From, Maybe Dreaming? But I have A Lindsay Classic, and Sam I Hope That I Won't Loose my Membership Because of This!!
But I Find The Adjusment as Easy As Any GRS system, Have Many Mates With The System, And Have Tried It Out.!!
I Find That With The Idle Screw Setting I can Do My Scrimshaw, Much Faster, and With Little Pain on My By-Carpal Tunnel Release!!! Both Hands,

There Is No EXTRA Setup Needed in Both Systems,!! You Have To Learn To Addapt!!
As For Quick Change,? When Last Did You Try A LINDSAY, Marcus,? I change my Bits as Easy as A.B.C. with No Spanners or The Likes, !!

Instead of a Box, Righly So, The Lidsay comes with a set of Gauges, That I mounted on a Board, (LessSpace on the Table!!) and Easily accessaBLE.!!

ChrisB.

Hello Viljo and welcome to the forum!

To answer your question about which options you have I think both Marcus and Chris have just about covered them. You can find out about the GRS systems at www.grstools.com and the Lindsay system at www.lindsayengraving.com. Both sets of tools are good and will provide you with many years of service. As you can see both sets of tools have devoted followers.

The system3 you ask about is not what most engravers use. The people who do use the GRS systems either have the gravermax or the gravermach. Both of these systems are more responsive than the system3.

If you contact either company and ask if there is someone near you in Estonia, I bet they would try to get you in touch with that person so you could maybe try out one, if not both, systems.

Hey Chris,
You should be able to make your point without negative comments about Marcus. Should you live long enough to gain the talent level of Marcus, you would then have the wisdom to measure your words more carefully.

Hello guys.

Before this thread goes somewhere that it shouldn't, I'd like to remind everyone about the tool wars and what the forum is about. Everyone has an opinion and may express it... but lets not start slinging mud over the proverbial fence.

If anyone wants to give information then let him do it in a factual, dispassionate way. If someone prefers one system over the other, that's fine, then he can express his opinion. If someone else has more or different information for Viljo, then let him state the information. However, the forum is not a place for tearing down any one person, group, tool or idea.

vilts try both and you to will become a devoted follower of the choice you make.Steve has a return policy on his air gravers but be warned,if you get one you will not want to send it back.the air graver does not have a setting for specific strokes per minute but once you use it it is like a music instrument and you will know when it plays your song.by that i mean you will know when the strokes per minute is what you want for the job at hand.they are two very different systems in the way that they work but in the hands of a master will get the same job done.the classic can also be upgraded to a palm control later.go to Steve's site,there is a link to the patents and have a look at how they work.hope you get to try them both.as for how long it will take to master the art of engraving the answer is simple "forever" you will never stop learning.what is good today is no good the next and you will always strive to get better and better.just keep at it and have fun doing it.

Hi Viljo

Welcome aboard.

Tira put it really well. Both systems are excellent and represent value for money. Both do exactley what they're supposed to do and are the top of the range tools. I think that you won't be dissapointed with either system. I fully understand your dilemma as the exchange rate can be a bit painful on the bigger ticket items.

Another thing, if financialy possible is to get a power hone and holding device for graver sharpening. Sharp gravers are a must no matter what tool drives them. If you can't afford to get a power hone then you'll have to learn to sharpen them by hand which takes a bit of practice..

As Marcus pointed out it's the person using the tool that makes the engraving. Not the tool itself.

Cheers
Andrew

PS That's a very nice looking sword you've made there. Keep us posted on your progress I'd be keen to see what you end up with and how your engraving adventure progresses.

I use a GraverMax SC and like it a lot. It does everything I want to do and then some, but then again, my skill level is not quite up to that of some of the greatest engravers I have ever seen who just happen to participate in this site and a couple of others. But, I don't spend all day every day engraving like they do. The more you cut, the better you will understand your tools, and then, when you are very comfortable with them, your artistic skill will begin to show. You will continue to improve as you work at the craft; the more you work, the better you become.

hi: i used a gravermeister for nearly 30 years. it never needed anything beyond minimal maintenance. i recently sold it . not because it fell apart. it was still running strong after all those years. i simply bought the airgraver cause i wanted a "change". none of the power tools, i feel, will make you better. i do think they will allow you to perhaps work faster, and in a round about way can lead to better work because of increased practice. look at the engravings done a hundred or more years ago. those folks didn't even have the electric light bulb! they did practice, though !! best of luck.

I will put my small 2 cents in on this.

I first looked at the Lindsay equipment and was immediatly impressed with his system, I lurked around for a bit gleaning information. I then found the GRS site and did the same thing.

In the end I found that I did not have a ready supply of cash on hand and Lindsay did not accept credit cards, GRS did. I purchased a Gravermach with the Magnum handpiece set and just recently added the Monarch, great system and no regrets.

Marcus, No Mudslinging Intended !! Sorry Mate if it came over that way.!!
Glen Yes I wish that I would be Able to engrave too his Standard some Day.!!
ChrisB.

Hi Chris, the last thing I or anyone else wants is 'tool wars' on this forum...been there on other forums and got the tee-shirt! LOL. I was trying to point out the advantages and disadvantages of each system very briefly, and indeed when it comes down to it, in the end from a financial point of view, there is very little that separates the two if you want a complete system. I'll put my hands up to it, I use GRS and am very happy with it thank you. I'll be even happier when I finally get an Airtact. A couple of years back I was considering going over to a Lindsay because the noise from my old Max used to drive me nuts. I was given the chance to try a GraverMach and was sold completely on the system. When I tried the Lindsay, at the time I was most disappointed given the hype. It seemed to me that it was an arse-about-face system in that if you wanted more power you had to have more speed. Something that you don't always want in the world of gun engraving! I tried the Classic and the Chaser and neither offered anything that the GraverMach couldn't (* there was an advantage over my old Max however), so what was the point of changing systems?

Barry Lee Hands was over a couple of weeks back and I played around with his Palm Control and I was very impressed with it. However, it could not plunge cut in the way required for English fine scroll. The scooping action required to lift the bur from the cut doesn't work on small scroll but you could get away with it on large scroll. The whole tool was a work of art complete with iron wood handle and Steve Lindsay is a very talented artist and engineer. But my tools get dropped and clunked about every day and to be honest my workshop isn't the cleanest, most dust and debris free of environments and I don't know how it would hold up with the years of abuse it would get. GRS is a proven entity for me - it works and it keeps on working and if anything goes wrong (which it hasn't) I have the knowlege that there is a company that can deal with my problems quickly and efficiently.

So, lets all stay friends and not abuse one another on this forum. It's one thing being evangelical about your tools and another when you start bringing things onto a personal level.

Greetings from Basel, Switzerland. I just arrived in my hotel and got online to check the forum. Thank you Tira for reminding everyone not to let this discussion get out of hand.

Jetlagged Sam

Thank you all for answering, you've given very good advice and thinking material and you really made me feel welcome here.

Unfortunately I don't think I have any chance of trying out either of these systems, living where I live, so I think I'll have to go with one of these systems and practice happily ever after.

I found very good offer at Otto Frei - GraverMax SC with Magnum handpiece and with shipping to Estonia is $1050. I think this is quite good, since shipping alone costs $75.

So, let's say I buy GraverMax SC. What else do I need to get up to speed? I already have compressor.

I know I need gravers, but which ones do I need? Probably they should be GRS QuickChange gravers, but I've no idea about angles and other things.

I could make power hone myself, so sharpening should not be a problem. Maybe sharpening fixture might be helpful, or maybe I could do that also by myself, it doesn't look too difficult to build.

At the beginning I probably could skip vise and use some diy turntable or something?

Next (or maybe first) on wishlist is "Art of Engraving" by Mr. Meek.

Anything else?

Viljo

Viljo,
I built my vise from Meeks book by scaling measurements from the photo. It works well. Also you may want to get an optivisor for vision magnification. Send for a catalog from GRS its free, but gives so much information. It is totally about engraving supplies. Good luck.

Viljo: I would recommend the 901 handpiece instead of the Magnum. The 901 is a good all-purpose handpiece which can do fine to heavy work. The Magnum has a lot of power, so if you might prefer the 901 (I do). Others might have different opinions.

You should also get a vise or build a suitable one. It should rotate freely.

Please send me an email as I have some things I can send you when I get home.

~Sam