Question: Gunstock fitting

I have a question to the gunmakers and stock makers. I have worked on several "custom" guns and have noticed there is a difference in how stocks are fitted to the metal.
I have had some in my shop that the wood is flush to the metal work and others that the wood sits above or proud of the metal, what is the "correct method" if there is such a thing and why are the 2 different approaches used?
The ones that are proud to the metal seem to be .032 or around 1/32 above the wood is there a reason?

Any help or information is appreciated I want to understand this.

Tom White

Tom,
I generally work on muzzleloaders but I think this might make some sense. I typically will shoot to have all parts level with the metal, I don't know anyone that intentionally will leave the wood proud. That being said I've experienced shrinkage due to the humidity, expansion contraction factor of the wood. An old friend on mine said the only way to minimize the effect was to only use 10 year old wood. Basically a more stable piece of wood. The other problem is where a stock was made and the weather conditions will impart an effect if the wood isn't as stable. The stock may grow as well as shrink depending upon the conditions in which it was made. A very dry climate shipped to a very humid region may well get the stock to grow. Vice versa from a humid to dry would shrink the wood cells. Hope that made a little sense.
Mark

Tom,
It depends on what your definition of "custom" is, as the term is used loosely today. What Mark said applies, but there are other variables too.

Ideally, the metal should look like it grows from the wood with seamless transitions. This requires that the wood and metal be filed in together. If this "custom" gun is just a restock using premium wood, the stocker tries to avoid ruining the existing metal finish. He will put masking tape on it and finish to the tape line, in which case the wood will be the thickness of a couple of layers of tape proud of the metal.

One tries to find dense, stable wood which won't change much, usually stump or crotch wood. This wood is usually grown under extreme conditions with short growing seasons so the growth rings are very tight. Trees (black walnut for instance) grown on the edge of a north facing hillside where it receives little sun or moisture, coupled with long winters and short summers gives a good tree. Likewise, trees grown in arid regions (Turkish walnut, etc.) make for stable wood. Highly figured wood has all kinds of internal stresses inside of it and must be allowed to stabilize in the plank. However, even after this, when the plank is shaped into a stock, some of those stresses are relieved and new ones created.

Next is the type of finish applied. The old, hand-rubbed hot oil finish will cause the wood to swell as the oil is absorbed into the wood. A French polish will not, but is not as durable. Modern finishes are "on the wood" rather than "in the wood." Polyurethanes and lacquers are often sprayed on to give a sealed external finish, but result in a flat looking exterior rathern than one which looks a foot deep.

All this stuff, along with the type and quality of the wood will affect how the wood swells or shrinks. Most stockers who do top-end guns like to be assured of their wood quality, which is why they often have wood in stock and know when and where it was cut, as well as how long it has been drying. Buying a pre-carved stock results in unknown conditions.

Tom,
I think this is one of those debates that stockmakers probably have.
The idea of it being "proud" is to leave something for the future for refinish. This usually applies to shotguns or 2 piece rifles. I am guessing the real reason is when a gun is stocked after it has been engraved and finished however. Most gun makers I work with do the stocks before I get it for engraving so they can fit the wood to the metal and not worry about messing up any finish.

Tom,
You raise an interesting point.
In custom restoring some firearms there are two schools of thought.
I have restored a lot of Winchester Model 12’s to factory new condition.
Some were engraved for clients or for myself, some left plain.
For my own I always leave the wood proud, just as Winchester did.
But some clients want the wood to be exactly flush.
The same is true on the old Savage 99 and many others.
It’s up to the client’s taste really. I always ask.
On most full custom bolt rifles I see the wood is dead flush.
Best

Thanks guys,

I know the term "custom" can mean different things to different people.
I can see how some extra would allow for future refinishes.
John B. you say on model 12's that Winchester left the wood proud intentionally do you know why?
I have seen more that the wood is flush but some overunder and SxS that are proud.
I just wanted to make some understanding of it but perhaps that is like trying to see the world through someone else's eyes it just can't be done.

Tom White

I'm from the school of thought that leaves the wood proud. I mask my actions with three layers of masking tape and sand flush to the tape to make the wood and even hight above the metal. The reason to leave the wood proud is for refinishing, and to account for any shrinkage. Theoreticly, the wood will shrink uniformly away from the metal, so the action will seat into the stock to remove the gap (tangs are tapered for this reason), but if it shrinks below the metals edge, there is nothing that can remedy the problem other than restocking.

And a word to the wise, ALL wood will shrink a little, no matter how well seasoned.

Hello Bailey, I have a mauser that I stocked while in gunsmith school in colorado in 1980. I sanded the wood down to the metal and now all these years later the wood is 1/16 th of an inch above the metal. The difference is the humidity factor, Colorado has zero humidity and Louisiana sometimes is 100%. So, sometimes the wood expands.

I do have a rifle that I am stocking now that I think I will take your advice on an leave 3 thickness of tape to sand to.

Thanks
Ed

Tom, I don't know for sure why many factory Winchesters were left proud.
My guess is that there were several reasons.
Because they were sold all over the world with different degrees of humidity that may have been a serious consideration as Ed and others mentioned.
Another reason is the the stocks on most of their regular grades of guns were mass produced. Not hand fitted to the individual receivers.
Some bolt rifles and trap and skeet guns might have been the exception.
After all, you could order a replacement stock, fully finished and it would fit your gun as well as the original stock.
I'm not sure if any of this is still the case. The last Winchester I bought new was in 1968.
Best regards.

Thank you all for taking time to answer this for me I have one more question does anyone know how the wood was fit on a Savage 99 flush or proud.

Thanks

Tom White

Tom,
As I mentioned, to the best of my knowledge the Savage 99 was a little proud.
I have a nice old factory Model 99 take-down and both the stock and forend are about 10-12 thou. proud.
This is a nice old gun, all original and in the 320,000 serial number range.
Best.