Question: Sharpening advice needed

spank7357 · Jul 15, 2010

I am a little bit stumped at my situation....when sharpening a typical face using the GRS power hone, the dual angle jig and progressing from 260 through 1200 grits everything seems normal to this point. When I try to use the marble lap my angle does not line up properly and the result is my face gets polished more on one side than the other. I have tried being very stable as I progress through the laps but to no avail. Anybody got advice for this newb? Thanks much, Spank

FANCYGUN · Jul 15, 2010

I usually try to sharpen a few tools at a time. I take each tool through the different grits on the face first one at a time this way i am not changinge settings. Once that is done I do my heels on all of them. I find this is also faster for me when I do a bunch.

JAT · Jul 15, 2010

When you polish on the ceramic wheel you are only grinding off about ten thousandths of an inch. Well, that is enough to make it look like your sharpening wrong. Really what is happening is that small amount of metal needs to be removed before the rest of the face gets sharpened. In short just keep polishing on the ceramic until the whole face is polished, or at least the area doing the cutting. The same thing happens to me every time I sharpen. If you have to polish for a long time clean your wheel with some "comet" bathroom cleaner, rinse it really good, dry it and reapply the diamond powder so it polishes faster. I hope this helps. By the way, if I'm wrong I hope someone posts a better answer cause this is what I "think" is happening.

handengraver · Jul 16, 2010

Just one of the possible problems: the ceramic wheel has a larger diameter then the aluminum base wheel. Is there too much pressure when shining on one side, to move your ceramic wheel away from horizontal? The very edge of that wheel has no support underneath. (Only a guess.)

Greetings - Ivan

mitch · Jul 16, 2010

here's my thoughts on this 'phenomenon' (which i've witnessed many times):

JAT & handengraver touched on parts of it. there's a bit of play in the system. the sharpening fixture doesn't fit the vertical rod perfectly, the rod isn't perfectly perpendicular to the base (so the angle changes slightly as it rotates), the sharpener platform & fixture base aren't perfectly flat, nor are they perfectly true to the spinning wheel, which is not perfectly flat nor spinning absolutely true on its axis. they're all pretty close, but not dead on, so the errors are cumulative enough to notice.

ok, assuming your graver is ground to a fairly tiny face, it only takes a moment for a diamond wheel to completely regrind the whole thing. in other words, regardless of the angle the system happens to want to grind at that moment, it will make a completely fresh face. however, when you go to polish it you've changed wheels, the fixture has been moved, there's a little play, etc., but this time the wheel is not aggressive enough to completely regrind the face in a blink of the eye. so you end up seeing a shiny polished edge somewhere instead of across the entire face.

what to do about it? i've tried, with varying degrees of success, to prop up the rear of the fixture base with a piece of paper to add maybe 1/2 a degree of angle so it will polish along the cutting edge. anybody else have suggestions?

gail.m · Jul 16, 2010

I have observed this phenomenon as well using both the Hammler fixture, and template system. I also think that the minute varience in height of the grits themselves compared to the relative smoothness of polishing lap enters somehow into the equation. I notice this mostly when trying for the tiniest of heels. Sometimes I just polish the heels first, then the face, polishing back to the length of heel I want.

Peter E · Jul 16, 2010

I've experienced the same scenario as the OP described.

A couple things I typically do that seem to help:

1) I use an optivisor when setting the Dual Angle jig to be more precise in setting it
2) When grinding, I position the base of the DA jig so that the contact point is in the 6 o'clock position to the rotating wheel. That way the wheel passes straight across the face of the graver.

fegarex · Jul 16, 2010

Yea, what they all said above... I think most of it just comes from how much pressure is held on the tool. Just compensate as needed. Remember, this is just a graver. An 1/8 minute of angle difference isn't going to matter. If you are plotting out a trip to the moon it might but the metal you are cutting won't know the difference. Marty mentioned doing many at once. I do the same and that helps.
Rex

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 16, 2010

Most all of these are good replies, Gail being the most concise.
As in a lot of things in engraving, including sharpening, you get the best equipment you can, get all your ducks in a row,and then wing it!
The best laid plans of mice and men and all that.
I should add, that is one nice thing about sharpening by hand, rather than with a sharpening system, is that the inherent inaccuracies involved elimenate the alignment problems common to all the more sophisticated sharpening systems.

spank7357 · Jul 16, 2010

Fancygun, JAT, Ivan, Gail, Peter E., Rex, and Barry:

This is exactly why I love this forum and what eventually proves it as one of the very best. Great advice everyone and spot-on to help me get over my newbie-phobia. Your advice is a compendium of different suggestions and each added up to the solution I was looking for...the machines we use don't provide all the answers and eventually you gotta go on experience, guts and instinct. The best part is while I was questioning the need to make adjustments on the fly when my professional equipment should not require this, my assumption was wrong. It wasn't just me after all, just the knowledge and experience that I lacked. You don't learn everything by book and CD but rather in-person training that takes one "over the hump". Thank you all for your help.
Best regards, Spank

MICHAEL · Jul 16, 2010

Spank, Ive had this problem also. I'm using the ceramic wheel with 1/4 micron diamond spray. I usually polish the face first, hold on wheel with slight downward pressure for 5-10 seconds, then check and find half of face is cloudy and other half mirror finish. Sometimes, if it doesn't seem to get better, I either spray another squirt of diamond spray, or try another area of the wheel that is still white. I have always got the mirror finish after this step. For my heels, I count 1 one thousand to 5, then check. If not enough I repeat in 5 second intervals until 1mm length is achieved, then I repeat on the other side. Heel is usually formed in 5 to 10 seconds on ceramic wheel only. I too sharpen all my gravers at the same time. Ray Cover told me about this at the Engrave-in, says it keeps him from breaking his flow during the day while engraving. He sharpens them all either first thing in the morning or last task of the day. Not only does this make me better at sharpening, I feel It has helped me become a better engraver. Here's why. I used to keep engraving with a graver that I should have stopped and sharpened because I didn't want to stop (i.e break my flow, thanks Ray). Many of the same sharp gravers keeps you cutting. Hope this helps.

Bama · Jul 19, 2010

I have this problem also and figured that it was caused by the little play in the alignments of the system. One thing I found out was that one side of my ceramic wheel runs truer than the other side. You may want to check to see if yours is the same. If I want a polished face I just stay with it on the ceramic wheel until I get the whole face polished and the put my heals on. Being staill a newbe I am just starting to understand the concept of sharpening a graver. I wish I was more like Barry and had enough knowledge to sharpen by hand.

Funny thing. When I first tried to engrave I could not cut a decent line because I did not know how to sharpen a graver. So I invested in a power hone and a dual angle sharpening fixture. Now I get gravers that are sharpened correctly and I still have trouble cutting a decent line! Ha! I think there is more to this engraving business than knowing how to sharpen a graver.

spank7357 · Jul 20, 2010

Michael- I have been doing "batch processing" of gravers and it does help speed things up. It also keeps me from stretching the use of a graver past the point of needing sharpened and consequently minimizes the chance of slip-scratch.

Bama- I did check my ceramic lap a few weeks back and discovered a very slight uneveness but surmised that this was not the problem. I also am envious of Barry and others that sharpen by hand but as someone who sharpens many things (chain saws, hand saws, knives, scissors, drill bits and the like, I do those things using professional equipment. I encourage my customers to "touch-up" their sharpening but eventually you will need for me to bring everything to factory specifications by sharpening on professional equipment. I am planning to give hand sharpening a try with the notion that after I sharpen a particular graver by hand several times, then go to the GRS jig sharpener to bring it back to factory specs. Then observe.

On another front, good luck to you Alabama fans in the coming NCAA season. We Buckeye fans hope to give you a chase to the championship. -Spank

mark c · Sep 23, 2010

I sharpen the face as everyone else but I also do use the lap wheel to finish before I change the angle mark c

James Roettger · Sep 23, 2010

I find extra careful handling of the holding jig between lap changes helps to prevent the jig from making tiny slips out of adjustment and exacerbating the variance. I just polish till the whole facet is shiny.

spank7357 · Sep 23, 2010

Mark, James, Thanks for your feedback. It seems "repeatablity" is accomplished by using most of the excellent tips mentioned in this thread. I have tried doing some heels by hand and surprisingly the results are relatively easy. I haven't had the same level of success with the face grind but expect that after MORE PRACTICE it will come. Best Regards, Spank

lesholmes · Sep 23, 2010

I have had good luck polishing the face with the 1200 grit then, without changing any adjustment, polishing the face with the dry ceramic lap (no diamond).

Les Holmes

airamp · Sep 23, 2010

Hi,

I was told by Bryan Bridges in class that the face could not be polished. Leave it at 600 or 1200 or it will reflect and be hard to see the point.

I put grind the bottom angle of the graver with 3000 grit lap (linsay point) then put on a heel with a few strokes of a extra fine translucent (or black) arkansas stone with mineral oil. This gives me a flawless highly polished heel that cuts very bright. The bottom and heel are much more important to polish than the face it seems.

Works great for me..

AirAmp

Question: Sharpening advice needed

spank7357

Elite Cafe Member

FANCYGUN

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

JAT

Member

handengraver

Elite Cafe Member

mitch

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

gail.m

Elite Cafe Member

Peter E

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

fegarex

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Barry Lee Hands

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

spank7357

Elite Cafe Member

MICHAEL

Elite Cafe Member

Bama

Elite Cafe Member

spank7357

Elite Cafe Member

mark c

Member

James Roettger

Elite Cafe Member

spank7357

Elite Cafe Member

lesholmes

Elite Cafe Member

airamp

Elite Cafe Member

Latest posts

Sponsors