My theory about why different angles work on different gravers

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 12, 2010

Notice this pic:
Tungsten carbide molecular crystal, three faces, 3 divided by 360 degrees equals 120 degrees.
Is it coincidence that we like 110- 120 degree carbide gravers?
I think it is just the fact the molecules like to stack that way. . .

Here is an iron crystal, four faces, 360 divided by 4 equals 90 degrees, is it any wonder we sharpen our high speed steel gravers to 90 degrees with a 45 degree face?

mitch · Jul 13, 2010

"Barry's Fractal Theory of Graver Sharpening"

pilkguns · Jul 13, 2010

hmmmmmmmm , Interesting, so if want a flat graver, I should make it out of carbon steel? or maybe coal, or shale, it really breaks in straight lines?

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

Scott, I don't know in theory, but I like Glensteel for flats,When I am cutting steel, of course it doesn't work on really hard stuff. I use carbalt flats for soft stuff sometimes,but the corners tend to chip.
The Egyptians used obsidian gravers to engrave Tut's Sarcophogous, so you could be on to something there.
I found if I make a wide carbalt "scorper" to use my friend Marcus's term, with 120 degree corners, it doesn't break on the soft stuff, and makes great bright cuts.
The interesting thing is, I made a prediction to several people that because carbide likes 120 angles, it must have molecules that like to stack like that,( I have been spouting that at the Guild show for years) it was only last night that I actually looked up the images, and found the triangular crystals.

The idea is that in the material these crystals are all jumbled up, but when you make a tool with a 120 degree belly or other angle from carbide , more of these crystals are aligned and supported then when you make a 90 degree angle.

Mike Cirelli · Jul 13, 2010

Well another theory is as you can see from the pictures, the carbide molecule has more balls than the carbon steel. More balls would make it tougher, right.

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

well, I have heard that if you got more balls,or bigger balls, you are tougher, hehe. . .
One might say carbide is not really "tougher", just harder.

I do see a lot of 120 degree angles in your carbide latice.

Christopher Malouf · Jul 13, 2010

Barry, I think you can make up whatever theory/fiction you want and it automatically becomes fact. With most folks anyway. In fact, your self-awarded PhD in Metallurgical Science & Technology is good enough for me. :big grin:

IMO .... I don't believe that the mass produced gravers on the market are of the highest quality anyway otherwise we wouldn't need to overpay for a new Crumble Max or Carbalt graver so frequently. That's business 101 and I would look to the graver for fault before blaming yourself by jumping to a conclusion based on one or several of the quackery based possibilities. ... yours excluded of course.

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

Thanks Chris, but my Degree is in Electronic Engineering not Metalurgy, and is a humble A.S.E.E., not a PhD, although I do pile it high and deep on occasion

eastslope · Jul 13, 2010

This atomic structure and sharpening angles would make for an interesting experiment. I would bet that someone out there has done extensive government funded testing on this theory. Especially for the tool/die/milling industry where they have machines cutting 24 hours a day year around. I know that the mining and oil industry spend millions on metallurgy research and development, why not everyone else? Anyway, its all too deep for me, and I enjoy the simplicity of just putting a sharp chisel to metal.

fegarex · Jul 13, 2010

You are all wrong. I heard the C-Max was actually reverse engineered from a material found at the Roswell crash site in 1947....

Sam · Jul 13, 2010

Rex: Now that you told 'em you have to kill 'em.

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

And I thought it was liquid metal from Terminator 2. . . .

silverchip · Jul 13, 2010

Wasn't there a UFO or Russian spy thingy up there in Montana awhile back???

tim halloran · Jul 13, 2010

Barry: I Do The Bulk Of My Line Cutting With 100 Degree, Or 110 Degree Tools. You Spread Out The Load On The Cutting Edge The Wider And Shallower You Go. Keep The Heel Short And Mirror Polish The Face And Heel. I Use A Longer Heel Only For Straight Lines. Flatten The Bottom Of Heel Slightly. Just My Thoughts.

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

Tim, That sounds good to me.

Brian Hochstrat · Jul 13, 2010

fegarex said:
You are all wrong. I heard the C-Max was actually reverse engineered from a material found at the Roswell crash site in 1947....

Well then no wonder the UFO crashed. The thing hit a little turbulence, broke the point and went skidding off coarse.

Christopher Malouf · Jul 13, 2010

Barry, that's not just liquid metal, it's a mimetic polyalloy.

Does anyone else here have a Doctorate from the Bigfork Institute of Advanced Scientific and Technological Philosophies , specifically in American and International bovid-ordure studies????

btw ... I was attempting to fairly hedge my bets between the two different/competitive carbide gravers .... which I believe have some amount of planned obsolescence built into them. But it was kinda funny .... I always thought the C stood for crumble .... 'cause that's what carbide does best when it doesn't want to cut anymore.

Barry Lee Hands · Jul 13, 2010

ok, ok, seriously though, I think the aliens ate my Pez? I cant find em around here. . .

http://www.pezcollectors.com/index....ath=81&zenid=9d9596e6f403f98fd43018730c6ee4d5

fegarex · Jul 13, 2010

Chris, you're always the skeptic. I bet you have your Harley helmet lined with aluminum foil huh?

Just kidding.
Carbide tools by design were never meant to be pounded on. In the last few years there has been new formulas that work way better but I still run into a gun that every tool I have in my shop will fall victim. In those cases I usually end up using a high speed tool as it will just dull fast but not break as fast.

Christopher Malouf · Jul 13, 2010

That's "hopeless skeptic" Rex. A genetic trait programmed at conception and cultivated through psychologically repressed experiences growing up in Boston. :yes:big grin::big grin::big grin:

I would put tin foil in my motorcycle helmet but since that fake brain bucket is no thicker than cardboard, it has a tough enough time just keeping my bandanna on .... which is its' only real propose anyway.

One day someone will figure out how to bind carbide with Christmas fruit cake and then we'll finally have a graver that will last FOREVER!!!

My theory about why different angles work on different gravers

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