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j.c.

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Nov 9, 2006
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I do not think Marcus or anyone else here was being intentionally unkind. Marcus simply hit the nail on the head, giving good advice.

I have learned since posting here that the written word is often if not always misconstrued from its intent by some, myself included. Forums are not the best means of communicating; however it is what we have to work with. Forums and writing are also a “learning†process.

The goal of becoming a “master†engraver is commendable…and learning engraving in the “self taught†manner while somewhat frowned upon by the general consensus it seems…is also not a bad thing. However there must be rime and reason to teaching oneself.

Simply put, if you (anyone) are adamant about teaching yourself,
……… don’t put the cart before the horse!

The following was posted yesterday on the “other forumâ€.




“Help me become a Master Engraverâ€



Ok, here are some words for your consideration.

What you are trying to accomplish with this plate to put bluntly, is beyond your current skill level. You are frustrating yourself and quite needlessly.

Start with the basics, TOOL CONTROL.

Layout straight lines of varying length-- cut to differing depths using assorted gravers. Practice cutting these until the straight line is mastered. Proceed to squares, rectangles etc. Once these cuts are mastered proceed to circles, ovals, simple scroll “back bone†layouts (no leaves). Cut the above until you can do all of them in your sleep with any graver you happen to pick up from your bench, even a dull one.

Once the basics are mastered then and only then proceed to “scroll pattern†practice.

While doing the above, continue with drawing/designing as it pertains to engraving. Collect as many books as possible that contain the styles/types of engraving you wish to become proficient at. Study both with as much diligence or more so as you give to your cutting practice.

j.c.
 

Sam

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I once commented to Winston Churchill that I admired the delicacy of many of the elements in his designs. If you've studied his work you know how incredibly thin he make certain stems and tendrils. Winston said that one day Joe Fugger was reviewing a job he (Winston) had finished and looked up glaringly at Winston and demanded to know (and I'm paraphrasing) "why did you make these stems like tree trunks??? Well? Why did you?" It was a hard lesson learned by the young Churchill.

I agree with Andrew that we should use a bit more grace than Joe Fugger's style. At least in a forum where as JC said, is not the best place for communications as its easy to misconstrue what someone's trying to say.

Mike's getting a lot of advice from a lot of different people. Do this, don't do that, looks good, looks awful, etc. This must be terribly confusing, but that's the nature of getting help and critique on forums.

One last thing...I remember seeing the early engraving of a fabulous airbrush artist. While this person could produce photorealistic renderings with an airbrush, he struggled with scrollwork just like the rest of us. His first attempts were just as awkward. One can be a fabulous wildlife or portrait artist, but ornamental design is a different animal altogether, and must be learned from the ground up.

~Sam
 

Ken Hurst

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My congrats to Marcus, Scot and others re. being honest about the presented work.. These guys have mastered their trade & know what they speak about. I personally believe tough love accomplishes more than pats on the back --- why offer encouragement to those who refuse given advice ? I would also suggest getting rid of "master engraver in two years" --- those on this board that are masters spent years getting there and you propose to be one in two years ???? I hope you'll slow down and seriously follow their advice .........................
 

Bunic

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Camp Hill, PA
Fresh steel

Just cut these today. The worst one here is one that I attempted to recut! Bad decision.

CC ALWAYS WELCOMED!
 

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John B.

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Mike,
The second one you posted is a lot better.
Glad you decided to cut some backbones only. Now you can get the help you need.
Take a marker pen and put a dot at each place there is an elbow or error in spacing.
Then study your mistakes and recut another plate the same way, same size and same number of scrolls.
On this next plate mark all your errors etc. and see if you can make less on the next plate.
Do this every day until you are unable to find these elbows and errors.
That is your quickest way to advance your engraving.
Even when you are not in a position to actually engrave draw scroll backbones ONLY.

It's been really hard for folks to get your attention because you allowed your reach to exceed your grasp.
You have a long journey ahead of you but now you are on your way, congratulations.
 

John B.

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Mike,
Another way to improve from the plates you have cut is to lift ink prints from them on to shipping tape.

Print that on to a new plate and recut avoiding the areas of problem.
Best.
 

dave gibson

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Man, there's so much good advice and learning tips going on here, I'm just glad they're not directed at me directly, though I'll try to take them that way.

Since many have commented on Mike's desire to be a Master in two years, here's my view. I don't care if I'm ever considered a Master by anyone, ever. My only desire is to do engraving that is agreed to be proper by those who know. I think maybe good engraver would suit me fine. I never like to put myself into a circumstance that could result in disappointment, almost always never, anyway :confused:

I actually like the rough play, it does come from the heart. If nobody cared it would be really quiet around here and if someone is just looking for sugar coated sweet talk they should hang out on a dating site. I remember a tattoo artist friend telling me about when he was learning, he had done an eagle for a customer and thought he had done a good job and wanted to show the boss. The boss looked at it and said "eagles don't have green eyes Man, why don't you take the day off and go to the $#@!^%* zoo..." right in front of the customer who immediately assumed my friend had no idea what he was doing and he'd have to look at it till he died. Cold monk.

Hangin' in like Gunga Din, Mike. You'll get where you belong, no matter how you try to avoid it.
 

Christopher Malouf

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ok Mike .... so you cut 12 scrolls that flow to the left? That's it?

Note the corrections to make per John's instructions then cut 28 more in the same direction followed by 40 scrolls that flow to the right.

Post your last 6 of each .... not your first ..

You better have something I can work with before you stop by next month ...

Catch ya later,

Chris
 
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Gemsetterchris

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Finland
Now that sounds like an order :big grin:
When i first started my stone setting apprenticeship i spent weeks raising & cutting beads in a straight line before i was allowed to try setting a row of spinels all in filed down 2 pence pieces.. boringly repetetive but necessary.
 

Bunic

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I cut more this morning early. Added some straight lines of varying widths.

CC Welcome
 

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Cloudy

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try scribing the lines with a ruler- helps lots to have it straight for starters (as me how I know this!)- or use a pair of dividers from the edge....
 

John B.

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Mike,
There is not a straight line in the bunch, sorry.
Please stay with one thing at once.
Let us help you with either straight lines or scroll backbones.
I'm glad that Chris told you to cut lefts and rights.
That is enough variation for now.
 

MICHAEL

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Harriman, Tn.
Hello Mike. I see you are improving. I have visited your website documenting your journey. I was trying to find out why you have the deadline of Master Engraver in 2 years. It may be documented here somewhere, but I have failed to find it. I believe, from reading on your site, that you and I began engraving around the same time and we both were even thinking about becoming engravers back in July of 2009 at the same time. I also dream of becoming a Master Engraver and being able to do it on a full time (paid) basis. I mention this only to show you that I am a beginner much like yourself and I am going through some of the same frustrations. I have no deadline that I am following. I plan to do this for the rest of my life (hopefully I'll get good at it). I have learned a few trades, trained to be a triathlete / completed Ironman races, and trained myself to do to anything that needed to be done (because if you want something done right you'd better do it yourself / because I enjoy making and fixing things). The reason I mention some of the things I've done is because there is a joy I have found that comes along with the journey in learning something new. There will be new friends you will make who will help you in your journey also. You will want to listen to them and try to follow their instructions until you have enough knowledge and experience to try a new / or better way. There will come a time when your mental / or physical energy will hit a low point, either through sickness, stress, or not meeting your self-imposed deadlines. You'll have to trust me on this from personal experience, but you will have to stop engraving for a while when this happens (maybe just a few days, maybe a year). I could be wrong on this and someone please correct me if I am wrong but you will be better when you come back to it with a renewed desire for it. I mention this only because I care about people and I don't know if you have stopped to think of these things. I wish you the best and hope your dream of Master engraver in 2 years comes true.
P.S. If I didn't make sense, blame it on the beer, I lost count.:beerchug:
 

John B.

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Michael,

Beer or not, what you say makes a lot of sense.
I'm sorry to be a bit "short" with Mike in my last post above. Just frustration.

Your work cutting straight lines is proof of your desire to master engraving and I admire your efforts and ability to listen and learn.
You show great improvement and the only reason I have not posted to your threads is that you are getting all the help and encouragement you need from others.
"Too many cooks just spoil the broth."
Keep going, enjoy the journey and you'll get there for sure.
Best regards,
 

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