Line Help Please

I tried to take some pic's of the lines i've been engraving but cannot get any to come out very well. I read the tutorial on engraving straight lines and I scribe a light line in the metal with a scribe tool / straight edge (practice plate of equal size and thickness). I start my cut on the inside of the line beside it but every time my point drifts over into the line and is close to perfectly straight after that. I just started cutting on the line from start to finish and these are some of my best lines although not perfect yet. Is this a bad habit that will hurt me in the long run? Should I do as the tutorial says and keep trying to keep my graver point along side the line?

Do what works for you. I have always cut on the line because I didn't know any different for years. Now I can't change and don't need to.

I think the most important thing is to keep your eye on the line out ahead of you once you get your line started rather than staring at the tip of your graver.

RB

Roger, I cut beside the line on borders but I will add that keeping an eye out in front on both borders and scrolls is very important. I know that for me following the tip leads to elbows and flat spots. I also am able to correct scribing errors and drifts by not slavishly following the scribe marks in scroll and leaf work.-Fred

Yip, I'm a follow the line guy.

It's a bit like shooting and all the various positions that you can hold the sights like the six o'clock position etc etc. I could never do that. I always aimed for where I want the bullet to go................and yes, sometimes it actually landed there

It's the same trying to follow one side of the straight line............ I always ended up drifting onto the line. So I just went with the flow and it doesn't seem to make any difference.

I'm not sure that it matters really..............consistency would be the main aim of the exercise??

Any inconsistency in the line thickness or depth can be cured by back cutting.

Cutting scroll etc can be a little different as sometimes you have to cut on the outside of the line if you are going to remove the background.

Cheers
Andrew

I'm with Roger on this, I'm a cut-on-the-line guy too but with lettering I cut beside the line.

Michael, what graver geometry are you using? I like to use wider geometries (110º - 115º) for scrollwork but they are difficult to control for line work. For this I use a 90º as the narrower geometry seems to track better and slight variations in depth don't result in a wavy line that the wider tools can produce without being extra careful. Also, double check that the graver heels are the same length as any offset will result in the graver wandering to some degree.

What kind of material are you using to cut on? I explain to customers the importance of proper polishing prior to engraving. This entails a laborious process of working through different grits and not just buffing over a surface. The reason for this is that the graver will track any subsurface lines that are left by filing or polishing with coarse grits. These lines if left unpolished can and do catch even seasoned engravers out (myself included) so make sure that whatever you cut is perfectly smooth and then knock it back to 600 grit to dull the surface so you can see what you're doing.

Hope this helps.

I appreciate the responses so far. It helps immensely with motivation to keep cutting the same line over and over again, (LOL):thumbs up:.
Marcus I'm using carbide square gravers with 50 degree face and 20 heels per Jerry Harpers suggestion (he said, he found this best for him, for single action pistols. He uses a gravermeister. Don't know if that makes a diff.).
I have shaped 2 square gravers on a powerhone with 600 grit diamond wheel and finished on an Arkansas stone. Tried to finish (or remove burr I believe?) with india stone's from Brownell's but Arkansas Stone produced cleaner cut.
I use the square graver with 1-16 inch heels for curves and the 1/8 inch heeled one for lines.
I have a Gravermax and have found better control for me at around 900-1000 spm (hard to tell exactly where spm are).
I am practicing straight lines on 2x2 and 2x4 GRS practice plates with satin finish. Chinese white applied / line lightly scribed with straight edge and starrett dividers for border work. All plates free of any mars or marks until after I mess em' up, LOL! Also tracing silver dollar down to dime then freehand circles and cutting circles. Trying to gain the muscle memory to cut even width and depth at present (got this idea from Scott Pilkington). Thanks in advance and looking forward to all replies and help!

I would reccomend that yoiu use a steeper face angle at least 60 degrees. The longer heel is fine. I wouldn't make it quite so long.

The longer heel helps with the graver being able to dive down into the metal, and track better. The steeper face does this as well, because of the bluntness. The combination will allow less variation in line width. That is normally due to movement of your wrist or the graver heel being short and sharp. This allows the graver to dive. When you compensate the amount of pressure to stop the diving, the graver comes up and then you give it more pressure to go in again and you end up with an inconsistant line width.

The problem I think you are having can be related. If you could concentrate on just going forward with a consistent pressure, I think the line would be straighter and it wouldn't matter where you cut , on or beside the line.

Realize that when you sharpen this way it will take more pressure to cut, but I guarantee the line will be more consistent. Try it and let us know.

Chris

It helps a lot if , when cutting a straight line try to always look at the face of the graver. When your looking down over the tip it is hard to tell exactly where the cut is taking place at times. And lean the graver to one side just a hair. this will keep the chip rolling off to the side and the ship will not obscure your vision.

Mr. DeCamillus, how long should my heel be for doing straight lines and how long for curves such as scroll backbones and leaves? Should I keep my heel at 20 degrees?
I want to leave the 2 square gravers I have already made as they are so I can compare to the new one but my 600 grit diamond wheel is getting rough from making the last carbide blank into a graver. I was going on the suggestion of an engraver who is helping me by only getting the 600 wheel but should I get other wheels? If there is something I need, I'll get it, I just don't want to throw money at engraving instead of hard work. I'm so new at this, that often, I don't even know what question to ask, so all information will be much appreciated. Thanks again.

If you can scribe a nice straight line , could you not scribe it harder to give a nice channel for the graver to follow rather than trying to eyeball a faint line?
Straight lines are tough to get 100%.

Straight lines are or they are not.....no in between. I guess maybe I cheat a bit. I use a flat graver ground to the line width I want (.10,.15,.20 wide, or whatever) with a 45 degree face. When I grind the heel I make a "V" graver out of the flat in either 105 or 110. I like a 22.5 degree heel lift. The graver will never cut wider than line width you want and is quite forgiving if you happen to dive a bit. I use these gravers for block lettering where line width is so critical. When doing straight lines I sight the edge of the graver on the line and go at it.

Works for me....
Roger

Michael,

First I must say that Chris, is sufficient, it's not necessary to call me Mr. People who know me will tell you I don't deserve that kind of respect.

Any way, heel length when it comes to cutting curves is related directly too a couple factors. First when the heel is shorter then the depth of the cut it will drag. the other thing thats relavent ,is how tight a curve you cut. don't get too caught up in all this,. It's not necessary to have an arsanol of different heel lengths for each curved line you cut. As far as how long? that's tough, because what works for some ,doesn't for others. The main point is that there is a relashonship between heel lenght and the cut. You just need to practice and try different heels until it works for you. The lift of the heel is mostly personal. I prefer a 20 degree heel, others like 15 0r 17 . Again just try different ones until you find your preference.

Before all of the fancy sharpening fixtures , most engravers just eyeballed it and it worked well. There are still many that still do it this way. There is nothing wrong with that. As my good friend Alexander Sideroff has stated when asked by students,, Why don't you do it like this or like that ? Wouldn't it be better if you did it like this.? He calmly turned and simply asked "Are you happy with the result?". What can you answer to that. Especially since his diamond setting work, is among the best in the world.

When it comes to straight lines you will probably do better with a lower heel lift. Once again, only trying will help. When it comes to using more than a 600 wheel you would probably have more control with a finer wheel for the heel. Don't use power when you make the heel, keep track of how many ,and how long,the strokes you make are on the wheel. you could use a hard arkansas for steel gravers. .

The last thing I would advise, is this, you will get many opinions and techniques here. They all have merit. The one gemsetter chris gave about scribing deep can help. Also Franks using a flat for even line width is also good. try them all and then use what works best for you , by picking parts of all. I hope this helps Chris

Chris, your a genius, thanks, I changed the face on one of my two shaped square gravers to 60 degrees and just cut a bunch of perfect straight lines! Wahooooo! I'm on my way! Man i just ripped a straight line across one time after another. Used my other graver with the 50 degree face and couldn't make the line straight not once. When i changed the face to 60 degrees it shortened my heel to barely over 1/16th of an inch. At 60 degrees it feels more natural to maintain the correct angle and get a straight line with even width and depth. With the 50 degree I can see the width and depth vary throughout the cut. Again thanks. The deeper scribe mark helped also. Thanks to everyone. It is my dream to become an engraver. Well a couple of hours left to in the day so I'll get back to cuttin' lines.:yes

something that helps me: like roger, i alternately follow the line, then look ahead, then back to the line. your face should have a polish to it, but this can be a problem; the glare from the face can distract you. try blackening the face with dark magic marker.
chris decamillis is right-- a 1'16" heel is quite ok for just straight lines. you would never want this fo curved scroll work.
heels for scroll or curves should be very short-- not much longer than the thickness of a hair or 2 at most. if the heel is longer than this, when you cut a tight scroll, the longer heel will scrape the outer wall of the scroll and create a very rough edge that is quite undesirable