Help, please: Bulino Graver Geometries

Hello,

I guess I should introduce myself as I don't believe I have ever done so. I am new to engraving and primarily practice western bright cut.
I am going to pre warn you and say that there is probably a very obvious answer to my question that I am missing which would not surprise me at all!
Feel free to laugh at me and make fun of me.
I purchased the Basic Technique for Bulino Engraving video and have watched it several times. I decided to give some of the basics a try and ordered some c-max blanks and a vpoint 90 and 105.
I have made an 80 degree but I have to say that Geometry was DEFINATELY my worse subject in school :beat up:.
With the pictures and angles I have no problem actually grinding the gravers however I do not know the angles that I am supposed to grind the 90, 100, 105, and 110.
Again, sorry if this is a totally rediculous question!!!
I would appreciate any help that I can get.

Thanks,
Jane

there are no stupid questions, just a lot of inquisitive idiots. (sorry!)

i can only speak for me, but for actual bulino dot work i use a 90° square. then depending on hardness of the metal, from 24k gold to hardened gun steel, i sharpen the face @ 35° to 60°, with NO heel. if you're doing something other than pecking out dots, that's a whole nuther proposition.

So far I have just been practicing some of the line technique. I should have said that in my original post....sorry!

Thanks for the input!

ok, Jane- first i'd recommend that you stop trying to make/try so many different shapes, angles, etc. there is no 'magic' combination of face, heel, & tool angles that will make the chips flow like a Mozart concerto on your first attempt. until your skill level is to the point where you can see & feel the difference, or are trying to achieve a specific effect, you'll just drive yourself crazy.

i'd suggest you start out with 90° square tool (momax, glensteel, carbalt, whatever's handy) and sharpen it much the same as you would for any other engraving (40°-45° face for mild steel, less for softer metal, more for harder), but with a lower heel angle- maybe 10° or so, instead of the more typical 15°. if you're cutting fairly straight, fairly short shading lines you can get away with even lower and the heel can be a little long without causing problems. once you start cutting more curved lines make the heel VERY short (like nearly invisible at a quick glance- you practically wave it over the sharpening stone) and if it's still dragging in the turns start experimenting with higher heel angles a degree or two at a time- keeping the heel faces TINY. also, i use a 600 grit diamond stone and do NOT polish the faces- you don't want shiny cuts, you want dull, non-reflective dark lines.

for the most part, line or 'banknote' bulino is pretty much just a superfine version of more typical engraving. relax, have fun...

Thanks Mitch

Hi Jane,

Am I correct thinking that you are struggling with bright cut? Also, is that what you refering to in your quest for graver geometry?

If you are, you need to know that a flat is a peculuar tool in that you have to approach the cut from a non direct angle which makes a difference compared to a regular square tool.

You sharpen a square for general cutting with the tip of the tool looking like a diamond shape. You sharpen a bright-cut tool like you would a chisel. Can you visually get ahold of this or does this make any sense?

Now I like a high lift, but that is more according to personal taste and technique. In cutting bold cuts i.e. brightcut, it takes a bit of finesse, so get ready to spend some time practicing to gain control of the tool. The pros make it look easy.

On a bright cut tool, I have about a 15 degree lift and a 50 degree face. These are only begining specs. Your personal dynamics might require slightly different angles and you will have to find your own specific needs, but they usually won't be far off. If you are cuttng silver, you can have a little more rake on the face of the tool, possibly 45 degrees. For steel you can beef up the point for strenght by using less rake on the face, i.e. 60 degrees.

As far as the polish on the tool for bright cut, you want a mirror polish. That is the traditional way for western bright cut.

I came up with a style that I call bright-cut sculpting where I don't polish the tool, as glitter or flash destroys deminsion. You can find reference to this style in the tips section. Look under piddle plate. I have forgotten the other references to this style, but I think it is the "transition style" which indicates gun style scrolls with bright cut techniques. It is a pretty neat style.

There are different points and geometry for different purposes, but go after one and get it right for point geometry is critical to a smooth cutting tool.

Have you taken any classes? This would get you started quickly if you have your point geometry down pat.

Hope this informatin helps.

Ron S

From what i have gathered for cutting bulino lines a polished graver will show a darker cut, abit odd but proven.

That would be for the underside (heel), polishing the face in my opinoin does nothing as thats not touching anything but already cut metal.
In fact it will just make life difficult by making the point harder for you to see.

Ron,

I appreciate your response. I actually am doing okay with bright cut and am only concerned with the angles as to which I sharpen a 90, 100, 105, 110 graver for bulino.

I do bright cut on a daily basis but in my spare time was interested in playing around with learning a little on bulino. I purchased the Basic Technique for Bulino Engraving video so I could just see how it is done and I am quite interested in it. I ordered some cmax gravers so I could practice the line exercises that Christian DeCamillis demonstrates in his video. He shows that using different geometries on your gravers produces different shades of grey. I can see that obviously in his video but am a hands on kind of gal and wanted to play with it in my shop.
With his video he shows how to sharpen an 80 degree bulion graver (forgive me if I am not using the correct terms) and I did so and have no problem with it. Since I would like to play with the other geometries and I am asking at what angles do I sharpen to make the 90, 100, 105 and 110. I have plenty of cmax gravers to use so that is not a problem.....just me being geometry dumb is the problem.
I would love to take a class in the area some time but can't afford to at this time. I also thought I should just try the VERY BASICS as shown in Christian's video and see if this is something I would enjoy or not before investing a lot of money in classes and training.
Did I clear that up for you at all? Sorry, I have a hard time explaining things as I do not always use correct terms or wording.

Hi Jane,
Maybe this could help you.
Set the graver in the fixture with the top up and the rotation mark at zero if you are using a GRS multi angle fixture.
For a 90 you would then rotate each side to 45 on each side of the zero because 45+45= 90, deducting 90 from 180 degrees gives you a result of the 90 you desire.
Therefore a 110 would be 110 deducted from 180 leaves 70. Dividing the 70 into two parts for each side give you 35. For a 110 you would set the graver to 35 each side of the zero.
A 100 from 180 leaves 80. 80 divided by 2=40 each side of zero.
You would set the tilt angle to whatever you want the bottom or belly to be.
Just remember you always deduct the graver width you want from 180 degrees and divide that number in half for the rotation from each side of zero.
Hope this helps, best regards.

THANKS John! That exactly what I was looking for. No one has ever explained that to me. I have only had people give me angles to try and not tell me how they come up with them. I didn't ever understand.
Sorry I'm such a dork, but that makes total sense, should have figured that out on my own!!!!

Jane I made up a crude drawing but it seems John has adequately explained.

Thanks Kevin,
I really appreciate all the help. I got some made tonight.
Thanks all!

i'm sorry, Jane- evidently i was oversimplifying your question, but i guess it all served to clarify what you really wanted to know!

Hi Jane,

GRS do a graver sharpening dvd, which I found explained things very well (and I'm as daft as they come

Steve Lindasy sells some bulino graver grinding/sharpening templates.I love all his sharpening templates as their so fast and easy to use.I would post a link but Im not sure thats allowed or not.

Many thanks all!

You're more than welcome, Jane. Glad to help.
Simple when you know how, isn't it?
You're not alone in not understanding these angles.
Bet a lot of people were just afraid to ask the question.

John,

I am more than okay with looking like a dork if it gives me an understanding of something. I never did well with Chemistry in school either because I always wanted to know why something is the way it is, and there was a lot about chemistry that was just that way without a reason and I had to just memorize something without understanding. Haha Or maybe the professors just didn't want to take the time to answer my annoying "but why" all the time!

Anyway, thanks again!

Jane keep asking. There's ignorant and then there's stupid.
We're all ignorant of something.
Kevin P.