Question: Money clips; argentium or stirling silver?

BES · Mar 21, 2010

It not a joke and not draw!!!

Hi Marcus!
It not a joke and not draw!!!

Marcus, there is a small secret!
After when you will make a clip for money, irrespective of its beauty, it will not work!

You should activate it by means of magic ritual!
Which â€“ you can create him for yourselves!
And then your subject it will be not simple a piece of metal with the engraved drawing is there will be a magnet drawing to itself деньг!!!

Rule the second â€“ never and let's it hold to nobody!
Having given to other person a subject which is adjusted on you and your personal power, you will make its usual subject! It will lose the force!

Good to you of the Day off!
BES
Eric S. Brezhitsky

Crazy Horse · Mar 21, 2010

Marcus:

Yes it could be made of wood. Good solid English Oak would be perfect. The dowel pin where the bend takes place would need to be inside a larger metal bushing in order to keep it from moving and bending, but that would not be a problem.

I use 16 gauge metal (.050) for my clips, so the distance between the back of the jig where the metal lies and the inner edge of the dowel is about .053.
Where the bending arm of the jig engages the clip (at the bend) I place a piece of leather to keep the clip from getting marred. I used a 5/16 (.312) dowel, but I would not advise using anything larger in diameter than 3/8.

It's really a pretty simple device and a decent wood worker or hobbiest could fashion one in not too long a time. It doesn't need to be made from a solid block as is mine. I used aircraft aluminum (grade 7075) simply because there was an abundance of it available, but it could certainly be fabricated from 2 pieces of good solid Oak.

Joe Mason · Mar 21, 2010

Hi Crazy Horse,
I really like the jig, but I am a little confused. The handle doing the bending look to hit the bending pin and stop short of completing the bend. How is the bend completed? Or have I missed something here. Thanks for sharing the jig photo.

Joe

Crazy Horse · Mar 21, 2010

You haven't missed anything. By advancing the partially bent clip (notice the different positions of the stop and the shim between the clip and the stop) the tang of the clip will simply roll around the dowel.

The multiple bending process is what work hardens the clip giving it the spring needed.

James Miller · Mar 21, 2010

how about gold money clips

Here are a couple of money clips that I made in 18ct gold, I soldered the clips to the backs of thicker gold sheet, I used an 18ct gold spring alloy for the springs.

Marcus Hunt · Mar 21, 2010

James, now that's a very interesting take on the subject. Years ago I considered engraving money clips with a spring type back but couldn't find a decent clip anywhere. How did you profile the spring back? I notice it's not flat. Also, another question now....
between the two materials which is most profitable, gold or silver? I hope I don't offend anyone with this question but I've often wondered how the two materials differ, percentage wise, in their markup or what the customer is willing to pay?

Gemsetterchris · Mar 21, 2010

Metal markup should generally be the same regardless, what they are paying for most is your embellishment.

Consider the fact that gold is going to make things expensive, you will sell far more in silver no doubt and you can always make one in gold if requested.

By the way i found this on the web, maybe abit easier to make?

James Miller · Mar 21, 2010

I use the same profit margins on both gold and silver, so I would have to sell 20 silver moneyclips to equal the profit on one 18ct gold clip. Both of these clips were for the same customer, I made six of the simple ones on the left and one set of the special ones on the right, the black bull and the red border were hard fired enamels and the background to the bull is set with diamonds. Both clips are a similar pattern but to make the Bull one different I just soldered two strips of wire along it's side lengths to create the profile.

Gemsetterchris · Mar 21, 2010

I don`t like the idea of putting a markup on the metal as the money earner.

What you should be marking up is the actual making and decoration of the piece.

Dave London · Mar 21, 2010

And if you want to get real picky don,t forget the, Bend Allowance = Angle * (PI / 180) * (Radius + K-factor * Thickness).allowance.:beat up:

ken dixon · Mar 21, 2010

James,

Thanks for the insight on pricing of the work for different metals. In my part of the world silver sells very cheap and I had been wondering if one could do better with gold.

Thanks Ken

James Miller · Mar 22, 2010

Gemsetterchris said:
I don`t like the idea of putting a markup on the metal as the money earner.

What you should be marking up is the actual making and decoration of the piece.

I work out my charges by adding together my costs and then adding my profit margin to work out the final cost to the customer, surely this is the standard way of doing business. I use my capitol when buying the gold and while my capitol is tied up in gold stock it is not earing bank interest so I see nothing wrong in making a profit on the cost of the metals. If my customer wants a cheaper cost from me, I will ask them to use their capitol and supply me with the gold, then I will only charge a profit on my labour times.

Gemsetterchris · Mar 22, 2010

I understand that James, and agree to an extent.
Fixing a profit markup for working time is fine, material % markup (of course there should be some) i think is abit different.

If for example you buy a diamond for Â£5 you can easily add 100%, but for Â£1000 diamond 100% is abit much, 5% would make Â£50 for doing nothing.

I like to make things within the reach of Mr & Mrs average as much as possible.

I`d rather sell several "cheaper" items and please several people ( all of which are a great source of advertising ), than have one extremely costly piece that sells later and pleases just one.

As for losing interest in the bank, i don`t think that really applies at the moment? unless you are buying and making far too much stock without a ready buyer.

These are my opinions only, pricing is an age old argument!

Do what ever your conscience allows.

Marcus Hunt · Mar 22, 2010

Maybe "mark up" was the wrong term to use. What I meant to say is are the percentages that can be charged on something that is made and engraved similar in both materials? This illustration is purely hypothetical but I hope it shows what I mean; say the silver in a money clip costs $10 and once it's made one can charge $100, theoretically that's a 'mark up' (for want of a better expression) of 900% on the material costs. Now if the gold money clip has material costs of $200 and it will support a retail price of $600 that's, comparatively, only a 200% mark up over costs. So working in silver should, in theory, be more profitable than working in gold (even though the 'actual' profit on the gold is greater) as the percentage mark up is greater, or am I looking at this from the wrong angle?

I find it hard to believe that anyone manufacturing anything in precious metals adds only their manufacturing costs to the cost of materials. Surely there must be a certain amount of "what the market can stand" in the mathematics of profitability?

Marcus Hunt · Mar 22, 2010

Gemsetterchris, I think you got in first with an answer to the question I was asking. So, there appears to be an art in knowing your market and what is a reasonable profit to make on something rather than a mathematical formula?

Gemsetterchris · Mar 22, 2010

There is no magic formula Marcus, we all wish there was :big grin:
Put it this way, you will never sell a plain silver clip for Â£100 but if you
engrave it...

Manufacturing jewellers pricing is a war, extremely complicated & relying on mass purchase/production and other clever mathematics.

"custom" work pricing can be whatever you want it to be and you don`t have to justify anything.

Just be abit realistic if you actually want to sell.

James Miller · Mar 22, 2010

Marcus Hunt said:
I find it hard to believe that anyone manufacturing anything in precious metals adds only their manufacturing costs to the cost of materials. Surely there must be a certain amount of "what the market can stand" in the mathematics of profitability?

There is obviousely a difference in what craftsmen charge these days, especially if competing with cheap Asian imports. I must admit that my charges these days reflect what my customers will want to pay.For example I have taken the job of the Bull moneyclip and set of matching cufflinks and re priced it. Using today's gold prices and bearing in mind that the whole set weighed 100 grams finished weight, today price would be Â£5,500 for the set. This may seem high, but if I was dealing with my usual customer Asprey, they would add their name punch and also at least 300% profit to my price when reselling through their shop, making the total cost of around Â£22,000 plus taxes.

Gemsetterchris · Mar 22, 2010

James is used to working the very top end of the market, as shows prices for the best are extreme.. but yes they sell.
If you like to make things available for the less than mega-rich, you need to think what your doing.

Stores & brands will slap on as James said up to 300% on your price, but they have overheads and a huge brand name to pay for.

I can`t input anymore to this without running in a circle.

Fantastic work though James :tiphat:

Crazy Horse · Mar 22, 2010

OK, before someone drives all you money changers from the "Temple of Engraving" check out this bend calculation formula.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

OK Dave, I dragged out my Machinist Manual (Machinery's Handbook, 21st Edition) and looked up a formula for calculating the bend.

Length = [(.640 X Material thickness (.050)) + (1.57 X The Radius (.156)] X 180 Divided by 90 (or 2) = .490

In the King's English....

Length equals .640 times .050 = .032, Plus 1.570 times .156 = .2449 times 2 = .4898

I use a 5/16 (.312) dowel for the bend, thus the Radius is .156. The material I use is .050.
The 180 represents the angle of the bend.

So the material in the bend is just shy of .500 or 1/2 inch.

And to think I did this all by trial and error. What luck!

Also the manual states: "The absolute accurate data for this work cannot be deduced, as the stock varies considerably as to hardness, etc."

So plan accordingly.

Marcus Hunt · Mar 22, 2010

Thanks for all the advice guys. Just one more question though, does the clip have to be made in 16g silver? 16g = 1.5 mm and taking Steve's dimensions that weighs in at over an ounce or 42.85 grams to be precise and the argentium will cost about $46. By contrast 1.2 mm weighs 34 grams and costs $37. When I look at commercially available clips they weigh in at around 18 - 20 grams (sometimes a bit more, sometimes less), they aren't quite as wide (about 20 mm) and I don't know what gauge sheet they use. Would making a clip in 1.2 mm silver be okay?

Just out of interest, if I wanted to make a clip 20mm wide in 14 ct gold in 1mm thickness (they don't do 1.5mm) the price is $822 and 1.5 mm 18 ct would be $1853!!!

No wonder James made a skeleton spring clip.

Question: Money clips; argentium or stirling silver?

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

Member

Attachments

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Elite Cafe Member

Member

Elite Cafe Member

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Elite Cafe Member

Member

Elite Cafe Member

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Elite Cafe Member

Member

Elite Cafe Member

Elite Cafe Member

~ Elite 1000 Member ~

Sponsors