I gotta big but...

Bunic

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I was at the Scroll Meister's studio last evening for my thrice-a-week whipping. I have been assiduously working on my poor little scrolls, hoping to one day get some kind of nod or wink of approval from Ron.

And I finally did!! I had three pages of scrolls I had done for homework awaiting his approval. He nixed them all...

I spent the better part of an hour drawing and redrawing the scrolls you see below. Ron had some kind of suggested improvement for every one. Then, after using all the negative adjectives known to man (and some I think Ron made up!), Ron said, "Not bad!" I was elated for about 2.35 seconds when he added, "BUT..." and proceeded to show me how to yet improve upon that one. (I'm considering having that little scroll matted and framed and hung in a place of honor in my living room for the world to see!)

So, although you pros might not see much success in these little scrolls, I'm claiming that Ron thinks I'm advancing. For my newbie brothers, take counsel from Winston Churchill: "Never give up!"

Meanwhile, back to the sketch book........
 

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Sam

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An excellent reference for a perfect logarithmic spiral is the chambered nautilus shell.



You have some good scrolls and some bad. If you compare each one to the nautilus you should be able to see what you drew correctly and where you went wrong. The number of turns is not cast in stone, but the distance between the turnings of the spiral is absolutely critical and either makes you or breaks you.

I applaud your efforts and wish all of my students had your dedication to getting this right.

~Sam
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Sam, I don't want to disagree with you of course, and sure that is a perfect scroll.
However as far as I'm right, Ron Smith. in his book is pointing on even wide distances as the leave mass and size does have to be equal in a spiral.
My first drawings were like Ron S. describes them, but they were corrected as I had to many turns in the bigger scrolls.
The scroll you are showing is probably the perfect golden mean scroll, is it that one we need to get close to?


arnaud
 

Brian Hochstrat

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Arnaud, a scroll that does not follow the golden mean is not a true scroll and will never look right to the human mind, no matter who's book it is in. Out of all the shapes in the world the ones that fit into the dimensions of the golden mean are what we are drawn to and why we use them in designs of every aspect.
 

JIA

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Mike, you are the luckiest man getting tips and tricks from M. RON.

take as much as you can from him sponge every scroll idea and then more.

the best of all have fun doing it.

Jakob
 

Arnaud Van Tilburgh

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Brian, I think it is not simple as that, it is almost impossible to implement only golden mean scrolls on a shape and in the mean while make the design look interesting and fit the shape.
And if it was, we only need one scroll (golden mean) that can be resided, but that does not work in my opinion.

arnaud

arnaud
 

Sam

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The exact shape or number of turns of the nautilus scroll isn't always possible. What is important is that the distance between the turnings increases in geometric proportion.
 

Bunic

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Let me stick my very soft newbie neck out:

Scrolls based on phi are continually and uniformly arcing smaller and smaller as in Sam's nautilus. There are no parallel lines because they are increasingly smaller.

As seen in Fancy Gun's beautiful cuts, you'll see that they consist mostly of concentric circles that are joined by arcs. Large portions of them are parallel before they arc to the next smaller circle.

Ron P. has drilled this into my head. His new Martini thread is a fine example of these concentric cirlces joined by arcs.

Thoughts?
 

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monk

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baloney ! you're all nuts ! phi, chi, omega, pi logarithms-- phooey ! cant something just look good without all the math ? my geometry teacher told me to take this thought with me throughout my life, if i forgot all the theorems and corollarys: pi are round, cornbread are square !
 

Sam

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Cornbread...I love cornbread. :)

I never think of the golden mean when I'm designing scrollwork. I just draw it. Knowing what makes a scroll's backbone line correct is absolutely necessary, though. As I said, the nautilus is a perfect example. That doesn't mean that a designer must slavishly follow that shape. Scrolls can be longer or shorter and have more or less turnings.

What to look for: Starting at the center of the scroll, the distance between the turnings increases as it spirals outward. I see engravers try to squeeze a scroll to fit a certain area and draw a backbone where this critical increasing distance becomes erratic by suddenlydecreasing and then increasing again. The end result is a very unattractive and lumpy scroll that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Mike has drawn some scrolls that follow the correct spiral and some which are off the mark. Close isn't close enough when it comes to drawing the critical backbone of a scroll. There's a bit more freedom when drawing the internal elements, but the backbone must be drawn perfectly or the entire design goes down the tubes.
 

FANCYGUN

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Practice drawing your scrolls larger. Then when you feel comfortable with them start to make them smaller and smaller. Reverse directions also. I find that sometimes it's easier to draw them one way rather than another.
 

jerrywh

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When ever the terms NEVER or ALWAYS are used Remember there is almost always a exception to the rule. The golden rule is not an absolute in everybody’s mind and beauty is in the eye or mind of the beholder. There are definitely boundaries but I think they are somewhat fuzzy. Like who is the most beautiful women in the world. A Rose does not conform to the golden rule and neither does Raquel Welch or a butterfly.
That is my observation. If everything conformed to the golden rule , life would become boring real soon.
I defy anybody to make Phil Coggan's or Ron Smith's scrolls conform to the golden rule but who can deny the beauty of their work?? Boredom is the biggest mistake an engraver can make in my opinion.
 

Bunic

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Thanks to all who looked and especially the responders.

I really appreciate this forum - where the little guys can ask and make stupid (or at least uneducated) questions and remarks, and the guys who really know respond with credible answers always leaving room for individual tastes and styles.

I bought two Dover books on scrolls this weekend and am seriously continuing my quest to not only become a Master Engraver, but to someday add something of value to this forum. Thanks to all for your patience.
 

Sam

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Mike: Help is what we're all about and the fact that you post and ask for help creates discussion that helps others. You're making good contributions already and I thank you for it. :)

Unfortunately I can't respond to every thread but we have plenty of very helpful members who keep things moving!

Cheers / ~Sam
 
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