Cloudy
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Are there any rules or suggestions as to when the background should be removed then stippled as opposed to just being stippled?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Question: backgrounds
- Thread starter Cloudy
- Start date
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
the only real rule I know of is dictated by how much of your time your client wishes to pay for.
If the item is going to be handled a lot, you should remove the background and then stipple it. And you should convince the client that it is really worth it.
When you just stipple the background and it gets handled, it will develop high spots which will start to burnish and the results isn't that pretty anymore. When bg is removed, you don't have access to stippled area (theoretically) and it stays stippled/black as it should.
HTH
When you just stipple the background and it gets handled, it will develop high spots which will start to burnish and the results isn't that pretty anymore. When bg is removed, you don't have access to stippled area (theoretically) and it stays stippled/black as it should.
HTH
CJ Tate
Elite Cafe Member
I always get a lot of food for thought reading these posts. Thank you Vilts.
Arnaud Van Tilburgh
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
That is well said Vilts, could not said it a better way.
arnaud
arnaud
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
With all due respect to Viljo, this sounds like engraver's salemanship/BS to me. I think background removal is a design element alone, nothing really to do with the use of the object.
I can't imagine a practical use of any engraved object,( gun, lighter, watch, ring etc.) where stipple is going to rub away that the rest of the engraving would'nt as well if the base metal was soft enough to rub away, or from hard handling conditions such as gritty hands. About the only engraved objects that I have seen and can really say were hard used with worn engraving were old pocket watches or walking cane handles, and then they were of gold or silver and everything, lettering, scrolls, or background were worn equally.
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Cloudy
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Question answered! Many thanks!
jetta77
Elite Cafe Member
Cloudy, I did a piece a while back and chose to stipple w no background removal. it was black at first but now is cloudy because stippling raises tinny burrs above the surface of the metal that get easily burnished over... Viljo is correct about this issue as is Scott, background removal is time consuming and should be factored into price...
Relief engraving (background removal) is a rich treatment that is considerably more time consuming. Semi-relief (stippling) is much less labor intensive, but can be very pretty just the same. On a high wear item such as a signet ring or ID bracelet, stippling is probably not a good idea as it's relatively fragile and subject to wear and burnishing. For semi-relief that will stand up to wear, a punch dot background done with a beading tool is much more wear resistant. But as Scott pointed out, it really boils down to how much your customer is willing to pay. Relief engraving is tops if it's within their budget.
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
I beg to differ Scott, I've seen loads of old guns which, even though case hardened, have worn through much use over a period of many decades.
Stippling a background works well but has to be done properly. This involves outlining all the scrolls and cutting down the background with a flat, or scorper, first. Once the stippling is below the suface of the scrolls it holds up so much better. I've noticed this when engraving Spydercos'. The steel is great to cut but if you just stipple without relief, the bright spots appear through handling. Scraping back the bur between layers of stippling also helps preserve the blackness. Sorry to disagree but this is my personal experience.
So, stippling properly a) takes time and b) isn't necessarily a cheaper option than single point background removal, but it does look good if executed well.
Stippling a background works well but has to be done properly. This involves outlining all the scrolls and cutting down the background with a flat, or scorper, first. Once the stippling is below the suface of the scrolls it holds up so much better. I've noticed this when engraving Spydercos'. The steel is great to cut but if you just stipple without relief, the bright spots appear through handling. Scraping back the bur between layers of stippling also helps preserve the blackness. Sorry to disagree but this is my personal experience.
So, stippling properly a) takes time and b) isn't necessarily a cheaper option than single point background removal, but it does look good if executed well.
Tom Curran
Elite Cafe Member
I am in complete agreement that the background should be cut down on a high wear object. It takes one heck of a lot longer to do.
As an alternative, you might consider crosshatching, which will give you a shade, but will wear without losing its effect as fast as a stippled area that is not cut down.
Tom
As an alternative, you might consider crosshatching, which will give you a shade, but will wear without losing its effect as fast as a stippled area that is not cut down.
Tom
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Gentlemen
You are all correct to some extent however you are forgetting one great background tool
The beading punch. This gives you not a black background but one with a beautiful texture that was and still is used in non relief gun designs and jewelry. If the background is not recessed, I either leave it alone or bead punch it.
Marty
You are all correct to some extent however you are forgetting one great background tool
The beading punch. This gives you not a black background but one with a beautiful texture that was and still is used in non relief gun designs and jewelry. If the background is not recessed, I either leave it alone or bead punch it.
Marty
That's what I was referring to, Marty. It's a really nice background when done properly. In fact, that's a good subject in itself. Using a beading tool that's not too sharp and keeping the circles from overlapping is the key, but I confess that I have limited experience with it.
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Somehow i missed that sentence Sam. You may flog me with a wet noodle
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Cool topic ....
I agree that the beading tool is excellent. It is also highly under-rated in that it takes some mastery to get it right. The ultimate use of this tool, in the treatment of background, is relieving the background first, smoothing with a flat, and then using a very fine punch such as a #1 or #2 ... some of Francolini's work is a perfect example. People associate the bead tool with budget factory engraving. I believe that when it's used for the purpose of combining traditional engraving with contemporary scroll-work it is the exact opposite ... especially when the background has been first relieved.
On my first commissioned gun back in the day ot-06
.... I used background relieving with cross hatching. It tends to create the illusion of additional depth to the background. I also like the "canvas" effect it has. Something I picked up from Ron Smith's basic scroll book.
Chris
I agree that the beading tool is excellent. It is also highly under-rated in that it takes some mastery to get it right. The ultimate use of this tool, in the treatment of background, is relieving the background first, smoothing with a flat, and then using a very fine punch such as a #1 or #2 ... some of Francolini's work is a perfect example. People associate the bead tool with budget factory engraving. I believe that when it's used for the purpose of combining traditional engraving with contemporary scroll-work it is the exact opposite ... especially when the background has been first relieved.
On my first commissioned gun back in the day ot-06
.... I used background relieving with cross hatching. It tends to create the illusion of additional depth to the background. I also like the "canvas" effect it has. Something I picked up from Ron Smith's basic scroll book.Chris
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FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Chris
For a gazillion years one of my background treatments beside a single point punch was to recess the background and then stipple it with a fine #1 beading punch from Ngraver. Never had a single complaint. Doesn't give you a black but a nice texture.
For a gazillion years one of my background treatments beside a single point punch was to recess the background and then stipple it with a fine #1 beading punch from Ngraver. Never had a single complaint. Doesn't give you a black but a nice texture.
E.C. Prudhomme used the smallest beading tools I've ever seen. I never could find any that small and they were great for texturing recessed backgrounds. He had beading tool plate that had micro sized beads, but apparently was no longer made. Of course with a microscope it would be relatively easy to make and harden a tool that small, but at the time I wasn't able. I'll try to get a closeup photo of his background texturing with this micro beading tool.
FANCYGUN
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Frank Hendricks showed me one of his background beading tools years ago and it actually was shaped like a cone as opposed to a rounded bead. Claimed it made the background really nice and dark and a interesting texture to boot.
Christopher Malouf
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
It's that beaded twinkle when the light hits it just right Marty. Especially when it's blued nice and dark. I really like that look.
Believe it or not ... the cross hatch background is what got me another commission. That's when I realized that the treatment of background is very important. I hear folks say "the customer will never notice" which basically equates to "they are not smart enough to understand it". There are definitely intellectuals out there and they do notice.
A 30 degree angle on the pointed stippling tool seems to produce a good "black". I would guess that cones would simply be a reverse of that same angle.
Looking forward to seeing a photo Sam.
Believe it or not ... the cross hatch background is what got me another commission. That's when I realized that the treatment of background is very important. I hear folks say "the customer will never notice" which basically equates to "they are not smart enough to understand it". There are definitely intellectuals out there and they do notice.
A 30 degree angle on the pointed stippling tool seems to produce a good "black". I would guess that cones would simply be a reverse of that same angle.
Looking forward to seeing a photo Sam.
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One has to learn salesmanship too
But actually I have noticed this burnishing-of-high-spots-thing from the brass Zippos I've done. There the stippling wears really fast, but shading/cuts not so much.
Btw. are there any other good sources for bead punches NGraver? I emailed them several months ago and no answer so far. Now the website seems down too.
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