Lunchbox SAA Colt

John B. · Sep 1, 2009

Dulltool said:
The first Colt SAA cross slide spring retaining mechanism for the cylinder pin retention was first introduced in 1892 well before the end of the first generation run. Colt also reintroduced the single screw original frame configuration in the early 1970's from the custom shop.

Thank you for that reminder. You are correct, Dennis.
The spring latch was introduced in 1892, 19 years after the first production of the SAA in 1873.
I was adopted after Colt made about 144,000 of these guns.
A little over 310,00 first generation Colt model 1873 and it's various sub-types were produced in total so nearly 50% of the first generation had the screw type frame.
My point was that if it was obviously an old gun and had the screw type retainer JJ could be pretty sure it was a first generation.
Other than the later Colt issue of the SAA with the early "black powder" type frame I expect we both realize that there has been a lot of the later guns with the spring retainer type frame alterated by welding and converted to the earlier screw type retainer. But that's another subject.
Best.

JJ Roberts · Sep 1, 2009

I just want to take this time to thank everyone for their input. The customer has it back, for I can't risk my license. I'll will be contacting the ATF to see what they say anyway.

Barry: The only marking I could find was the Rampant Colt stamped on the back of the cylinder.

Ed: I believe it is a 1st generation because the cylinder base pin is secured by a screw in the frame.

I never realized that I would get so much information and help. I will have to keep you guys on retainer.

JJ Roberts
http://jjrobertsengraver.com

pilkguns · Sep 1, 2009

airamp said:
These came from ATF Statutes. That is what the little squiggles designate.

Seems clear to me.

well it's not clear to me, since no judge in the land will let you by on squiggles. You will have to quote either the law or the regulation based on the law and they will then verify it says what you say, and then see if it has any additions, ammendments or retractions.

They also came from a federal agent so here is the problem.
Yes I agree that is a problem since if you ask a 10 federal agents, you are likely to get 10 different answers, 3 or 4 of which may be somewhat correct. This is why we have so many lawyers in this country.

If pushed would anyone want to be a test case in court??
And my statement was that ATF has already made a statement that this is not an issue. Further, if it was an issue the millions of guns in this country without serial numbers would have jammed up the legal system long ago.

I just dont have time or the money to question it..
I don't either. As a FFL holder for 27 years and registered importer for the last 11 years, I try to stay on the correct side of the law, while knowing where the lines are so I can use them to my benefit.

h

airamp · Sep 1, 2009

Scott,

If statue (squiggles) and section and subsection of the ATF laws (US Code) aren't good enough for you

Here is the code:

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

Be sure to download the full code at the bottom of the link. (note code is outdated 2005 so)

Email the ATF Legal Department in Virginia or DC. for clerifications.

http://www.atf.gov/contact/index.htm

Here is a link to the general site:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

"I try to stay on the correct side of the law, while knowing where the lines are so I can use them to my benefit."

good luck.

ED DELORGE · Sep 2, 2009

I just talked to a field agent at the ATF office in New Orleans (504-841-7120). I asked about our discussion of taking in these older guns that have no serial number for repair, and how to log them into the ledger. He said, just put under serial number (none) or (nsn) for no serial number. He said if it is obvious that it has been removed don't take it. If it was made after 1968 (like a glock) and is missing the tag with serial number don't take it. So, I guess I will continue to take in these older guns for repair and engraving.

Hope this helps.

Ed

Sandy · Sep 2, 2009

I in no way want to get it to "who's is longer" type thing. I believe Mr. DeLorge & Mr. Pilkington are correct. If it is made prior to 1968 and it doesn't have a serial number it does not need one. one of the problems with this type of thing is the difference between the Power to interpret and the ability to interpret. some times both are not held in the same hands. Airamp this is in now way a stone at you. I am refering to fellow law enforcement officers.

airamp · Sep 2, 2009

No problem here,

The original question was about a colt (lunchbox gun).

Here is history of colt single action guns and serial numbers of the guns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Single_Action_Army

If it is a know colt that should have a serial number and doesn't. ( I am sure JJ is very capable of and stated he tested for a serial number, which was not there, so it is a lunchbox gun) it is a stolen gun.

To me what to do from there is very clear. Get it out of the shop.

Tim Wells · Sep 2, 2009

There's also a lot of "variance" in interpretation between ATF field agents just as there is in their personalities; just ask Yves sometime.

He had a lady agent there once who evidently went to charm school with Leona Helmsley. Luckily he has more patience than I with people like that for she would have been out of my house in a nano second. Long story but a good one.

ED DELORGE · Sep 2, 2009

Hello Mr. Airamp, there really is no evidence that the gun is stollen. It could have been a special purpose gun that was made for a forein army or meant to be used for a test weapon for durability. Who knows. All we know is it has no numbers on it. Once after Bill clinton became president and was saying how dangerious guns were I ran an add in the local paper saying, " If you have any firearmes in your home that you want to dispose of I will be willing to take them off your hands". I was surprised how many people responded. So, I would say to you and J.J. and his customer. If you don't fee comfortable with such firearms in you home please send them to me. I will be happy to provide my FFL and pay the shipping.

If I can be of service

Ed DeLorge

airamp · Sep 2, 2009

1874, serial no. 16,000
From 1875 until 1880 Colt marketed the Single Action in a separate number range from no. 1 to 1,863
In 1892, at serial number 144,000
1900, at serial number 192,000,

1873 through 1940 (with small numbers assembled during and after World War II, the so called "Pre-War, Post-War" model), production of colt single actions reached 357,859. This is identified as the "Pre War" or "First Generation" of the model. Calibers, at least thirty in all, ranged from .22 rimfire through .476 Eley with approximately half or 158,884 (including Bisley and Flat Top Target variations), were in the .45 Colt chambering. The next most prevalent were the .44-40 Winchester Center fire (WCF) at 71,392; 38-40 (38 WCF)at 50,520; 32-20 Winchester (32 WCF) at 43,284 and, the 41 Colt at 19,676

Second Generation Colts were produced from 1956-1974 and carried serial numbers in the range of 0001SA to 73,205SA.

1982 as a limited-issue product with the serial number range of 80,000SA to 99,999SA.

To some it makes perfect cents that a company that has been putting serial numbers on there guns since they have been in business would make a gun without numbers on it??? Even if it were for testing they would document it...

Well maybe it was used in a black ops.

Regardless If asked A FFL Holder must prove that that gun was made without a number and it is very unlikely anyone could do that in this case.

If it can be proven that the company never made guns without serial numbers on them (Like charter arms, savage, J.C. higgens, sears did make ) well I guess you are just sool.

Odds are ???.

Somehow this thread would not go past 2 responses if the gun is question was not as valuable as this SA Colt.

Sounds like near perfect FISH BAIT to me.

Too bad greed can color judgement.

pilkguns · Sep 3, 2009

airamp said:
so it is a lunchbox gun) it is a stolen gun.

somehow I don't think it's actionable at this point.

Well maybe it was used in a black ops.
thats funny. but the reality is, that it's possible.

Regardless If asked A FFL Holder must prove that that gun was made without a number and it is very unlikely anyone could do that in this case.
you already said that you trusted JJ to not find the number????

If it can be proven that the company never made guns without serial numbers on them (Like charter arms, savage, J.C. higgens, sears did make ) well I guess you are just sool.

there are other known examples of SAA sans serial number

Odds are ???.

Somehow this thread would not go past 2 responses if the gun is question was not as valuable as this SA Colt.
Hmmmmm, I think this exactly the point I was making earlier in this thread. The odds are in this case, that the lack of serial number by ATF standards is not crimininal intent. The odds are that no prosecutor in this country is going to take this case (as it as been presented in this thread) to court. The odds are that this gun's collectable value exceeds the far less than 1% chance it has a creating a problem for the owner or the FFL licensee

Sounds like near perfect FISH BAIT to me.
again what are the odds in this case? Only JJ knows. If (hypothetically) JJ had been doing something shady, and the Feds were looking for an angle to bust him on, then maybe he should be concerned, but if I were betting my money on the odds, I would say JJ is straight up , as is his customer, as is this gun by today's legal standards. (yes if a lunchbox gun then it was stolen at one point). And the odds are likely that if the Feds were dangling fish bait under JJs nose, then it would probably be something different than this SAA.....but who knows, we have seen our goverment do somet strange things over the years

Too bad greed can color judgement.
I think its too bad trying to quote Sandy , prove "who's is longer" makes some people loose their common sense and give poor advice to others.

Whatever, I am tired of this thread

Lunchbox SAA Colt

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