Jim Sackett
Elite Cafe Member
Thought I'd show this, got 8 or 10 to do. Different initials for each one. Comments welcom!
Jim
Jim
A little threaded Monogram
- Thread starter Jim Sackett
- Start date
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Jim, I have been waiting to see the responses to your work, and surprised there has not been any. So I will give my two cents worth. First, I think you did a great job on the design of the monogram. You don't have to be an expert to be able to read the letters, yet it is complicated enough to make it interesting and nice to look at. This is not easy to do, and I say that based on my poor attempts, and also from studying this type of monogram on old watches. Often on old watches the workmanship is excellent but the monogram is almost impossible to read. But maybe that was what people wanted back then. As far as the cutting, hard to judge from the pictures, but it seems a little rough. Maybe you are trying to cut to deep. I have studied the monograms and inscriptions on old watches in order to improve my lettering skills, and I notice that on the high quality ones the cuts are not deep, but give the illusion that they are. It seems the proportion of the thin lines versus thick lines is good, but maybe due to the small size you are working with, both should be less wide. Lets see the others you are doing, and thanks for posting this. Kevin Scott
Marcus Hunt
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Hi Jim, Kevin's right more of us should've commented and given critique here. My excuse is I was so busy trying to get everything done before my trip to KS I missed a lot of stuff in the past few weeks.
Kevin's critique is excellent and I'd like to add a couple of pointers too if I may?
Threaded lettering, when done well, (in my opinion) is the best. It takes much longer than rolling (flanging) the graver to cut the thick stroke in one cut and that is why historically it was much more expensive and why you find it on high end items.
Threading means cutting lines next to each other and building the width of the down stroke. When threading, the best way to determine the width is by the number of cuts alongside one another. Say you decide on 4 but as you are cutting you think 5 cuts is better all the other letters need to be 5 cuts wide at the widest point. Now this is on the main parts of the letter, the fine stroke on the scroll/loop at the beginning of the letter does not always need to be as wide as the main down stroke.
What we are trying to engrave is an emulation of a copper plate letter that's been written with a quill or fountain pen. Modern ball or fibre point pens struggle to do this as their strokes are parallel. Get hold of a fountain pen and see what I mean as you apply light pressure on the up stroke and heavier on the down. If you loop the start of the letter you may find that there's not enough room to get to full pressure and hence the slightly less defined downstroke at the loop.
At the wide strokes, engrave the lines continuously side by side. Some folks (as it looks like you've done Jim) tend to cut the outsides first and then try to fill. This is easier to do but doesn't give the true threaded effect as you may find there's a blank space to fill or that your number of thread lines differs from letter to letter. Far better to build the lines one at a time side by side if you can.
I also agree with Kevin that your cut's look ragged. Can you please tell us what tools you are using Jim? Are you hand pushing, h&c or air assisted? For this type of lettering (if using air assist) I'd suggest around a 110º - 115º parallel heel; don't go too wide. Make sure you follow the tip of the graver and don't kick it out so you end up cutting with the edge of the face.
Finally, try not to run the letter or any part of it into the border line. In fact on something this small, personally, I'd not put a border line at all.
Hope this helps.
Kevin's critique is excellent and I'd like to add a couple of pointers too if I may?
Threaded lettering, when done well, (in my opinion) is the best. It takes much longer than rolling (flanging) the graver to cut the thick stroke in one cut and that is why historically it was much more expensive and why you find it on high end items.
Threading means cutting lines next to each other and building the width of the down stroke. When threading, the best way to determine the width is by the number of cuts alongside one another. Say you decide on 4 but as you are cutting you think 5 cuts is better all the other letters need to be 5 cuts wide at the widest point. Now this is on the main parts of the letter, the fine stroke on the scroll/loop at the beginning of the letter does not always need to be as wide as the main down stroke.
What we are trying to engrave is an emulation of a copper plate letter that's been written with a quill or fountain pen. Modern ball or fibre point pens struggle to do this as their strokes are parallel. Get hold of a fountain pen and see what I mean as you apply light pressure on the up stroke and heavier on the down. If you loop the start of the letter you may find that there's not enough room to get to full pressure and hence the slightly less defined downstroke at the loop.
At the wide strokes, engrave the lines continuously side by side. Some folks (as it looks like you've done Jim) tend to cut the outsides first and then try to fill. This is easier to do but doesn't give the true threaded effect as you may find there's a blank space to fill or that your number of thread lines differs from letter to letter. Far better to build the lines one at a time side by side if you can.
I also agree with Kevin that your cut's look ragged. Can you please tell us what tools you are using Jim? Are you hand pushing, h&c or air assisted? For this type of lettering (if using air assist) I'd suggest around a 110º - 115º parallel heel; don't go too wide. Make sure you follow the tip of the graver and don't kick it out so you end up cutting with the edge of the face.
Finally, try not to run the letter or any part of it into the border line. In fact on something this small, personally, I'd not put a border line at all.
Hope this helps.
Kevin Scott
Elite Cafe Member
Monogram
Jim, Marcus said it better than my try, and got me to think about it more. Threading is difficult. I quickly stopped trying to do it until I get better on regular script lettering. I got out a dime, which seems about the same size as your border, and imagined laying out the initials on it, and then imagined trying to do the initials in the thread stlye. I think it is just to small, even for someone experienced in threading. Threading seems to be used on larger monograms, with about twice this size being the smallest. I think at this size regular thick-thin cuts would look really nice. It would be much easier to do, and there is much more room or forgiveness for slight errors versus threading. In order to get better at script engraving, I have done what Marcus suggested concerning using a fountain pen in order to get a feel and understanding of script. It has helped me alot. Except that a fountain pen really does not give a good effective contrast beween the thick and thin lines. The right style dip ink nib with the right paper is much better. Surprisingly you can get the feel and effect practicing with a regular #2 pencil sharpened to a regular point. There is a website- organization called "IAMPETH" dedicated to fine penmanship that has great examples of fine penmanship, videos, etc. Might sound ultra boring but I really like it, and it is closely related to engraved lettering. Most of the principles apply to engraving letters. Kevin Scott
Jim, Marcus said it better than my try, and got me to think about it more. Threading is difficult. I quickly stopped trying to do it until I get better on regular script lettering. I got out a dime, which seems about the same size as your border, and imagined laying out the initials on it, and then imagined trying to do the initials in the thread stlye. I think it is just to small, even for someone experienced in threading. Threading seems to be used on larger monograms, with about twice this size being the smallest. I think at this size regular thick-thin cuts would look really nice. It would be much easier to do, and there is much more room or forgiveness for slight errors versus threading. In order to get better at script engraving, I have done what Marcus suggested concerning using a fountain pen in order to get a feel and understanding of script. It has helped me alot. Except that a fountain pen really does not give a good effective contrast beween the thick and thin lines. The right style dip ink nib with the right paper is much better. Surprisingly you can get the feel and effect practicing with a regular #2 pencil sharpened to a regular point. There is a website- organization called "IAMPETH" dedicated to fine penmanship that has great examples of fine penmanship, videos, etc. Might sound ultra boring but I really like it, and it is closely related to engraved lettering. Most of the principles apply to engraving letters. Kevin Scott
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