What do you say?

I was at a gun show receintly and had a gun that I had built with me. I spent many hours trying to get the surfaces flat, square and symetrical. I did an OK job

The gun is a semi replica of the Volcanic pistol. It does have large flat smooth sides. It could use some engraving, as the original ones had factory engraving most of the time.

There was this knife maker and his engraver at one table. The engraver told me that my gun needed to be engraved. I looked at some of the examples, and folks, I'm telling you.

I would cry if my beautiful gun got scratched up like that.

How would you respond to that person?

I think it is one of those situations where "you had to be there".

I have also seen examples of engraving that I thought detracted from the object, but one of the first questions I ask myself when looking at engraving: "Does the engraving enhance the beauty of the item?".

I think a successful engraving job makes it hard to imagine the item (whatever it may be) WITHOUT the engraving.

I have a knife that I bought on ebay, and the bolsters were engraved. I thought the engraving detracted from the look of the knife so I sanded it off! I plan to engrave it myself eventually.

Just my thoughts. I would be interested to hear what others think.

I think Peter knows how I would respond :big grin:


There's an "engraver" in the next county over who uses a dremel to grind out some of the worst scroll I've ever seen.

It always seems that I just miss him when I cruise through a local show. One day, fate will bring us face to face. I pray that day does not come because if he shows me his work, I'll have to tell him it is hack and he needs to stop ruining guns or learn how to engrave.

I believe that people who consistently do poor work for profit, and never make the effort to improve, are doing a disservice to the engraving community as well as to their customers. They are only in it for the money and are grossly mis-representing "hand engraving" in the education of the general public.

Chris

don't say nothing and keep on walking!! Actually don't even make eye contact!!

First of all, that gun deserves quality engraving. Don't accept anything less. Keep on looking until you find someone you are sure can at least do as good a job as the good engravers of the period that gun represents.

But like I always say, I want to create history not repeat it. You have created history here Charlie because you have adapted this gun to modern cartridges, and the beauty of the style of firearm and workmanship is better in every way than historic pieces. So is the quality of materials and craftsmanship and finish.

If you can realize that someone's engraving "just doesn't look right" go with your instincts and walk on by. You have a good enough eye for design you can see that, and even though this gun is made after a historical one, it is modern. It deserves the same delicate attention that you put into your work. It deserves the best.

Anyway, your volcanic is beautiful. I wish I could afford it. I would buy it.

Why didn't you post some pictures of it on the forum? I am sure everyone would like to see it.

By the way, not that you might not see one, but most really good engravers show at certain shows that benifit them. General gun shows usually have begining engravers attending where a customer would rather have a cheap price than a good engraving. You can find reputable engravers from time to time. but you have to know engraving well enough to establish that. Of course price will certainly be different from one who knows his skill, for it has taken years to acquire it.

A good thing to ask is, can they work in all popular styles i.e. English, American, German, Nimschke, Oakleaf, and/or Blackleaf. If they can't, you might want to look elsewhere.

Also, you did the right thing. If you are not sure, ask questions? Get an opinion from someone who knows engraving and is honest about it.

Of course this is just my opinion for whatever that is worth.

Ron S

I'd say, "Thanks for the suggestion"

Hi Charlie,

I think I saw a post a while back with one of your guns...awesome work!
You bring up a good point with your question.
If I were you, I would respond politely and keep on looking. As one perusing the tables at a gun show you are under no obligation to anyone. Every artist has his or her fan club which explains the knifemaker that was sharing the table & that is OK: everyone needs their fan club, I suppose!!.
Engraving is somewhat subjective however, if it looks bad to you then it's: "not what I'm looking for but thanks"!

My two cents,

WL

Say nothing................. or if you do have to say something, be polite.

The customers that they attract are not the customers you want...............and the engraving you do is not the engraving they want.

Then move on

Cheers
Andrew

Well, I think the real issue is how to deal with a guy who is trying to get you to buy his work when you don't care for it. There are a lot of guys out there like that. Chris is right, they don't care to improve for various reasons. Many times I have had the conversation with other engravers about mediocre and poor engravers who are taking perfectly good guns and knives "out of circulation" by doing work that actually devalues the object.

In my situation it is sort of reversed. I have had knifemakers want me to work on their knives when I did not think the knife was up to the quality worthy of my engraving. That is a tough spot to be in. But the best thing you can do is be honest.

One must be polite. It doesn't do your reputation or business any good to be nasty.

I think the best thing to do in your situation is to tell the guy something like,"This was a very special project for me and I'm going to wait a while, shop around, look at various engraver's work and find that special engraver that fits this project."

Anyone with a lick of sense will read between the lines and understand that you are being polite in telling them you don't want them to do the job.

Some folks don't have even a lick sense, some people"s self esteem is just to inflated to get it, others, as Chris suggested, are just salesmen for their work and all they care about is getting a chunk of metal to molest for a fast buck. IF that is the case and the guy just won't let up, your going to have to look him in the eye and tell him,"I have seen your work, and the work I saw did not have the same care and attention to detail that I have put into this project. I am going to have to pass."

I don't tell my kids "NO" more than once without them being in trouble. I really don't like to tell strangers "NO" more than twice without getting irritated. If the guy is too pushy you may just have to tell him flat out,"You aint good enough to work on my gun". If he gets offended that is just the way it is.

Be polite when at all possible but sometimes when a guy is pushy you got to set him straight and let the chips fall where they may.

My 2 cents

Ray

And don't assume that an engraver's current work is the best he or she will produce in the future. I have watched an engraver who shows in Montgomery gun shows go from that which I did not admire to that I admire greatly.

Keep an eye on people who show locally -- Many people improve quickly.

ok, then I would politely tell the guy he's a hack

I'm a believer in the School of Hard Knocks. Why? ... because I almost have my doctorate from there.

When I first started engraving, I had asked a knife maker at a show that I'd like to engrave one of his knives. After showing him a couple of things I had done, he flat out replied "maybe someday when you get better at it". Yep, I walked away with my tail between my legs.

I've never forgotten that and it has helped push me. If I were a guy that didn't care and were just out for the quick buck, I would have moved on to easier prey. As a guy with a conscience and the passion to push forward, I used it as fuel for the fire. I literally went into hiding for a year but came out a better engraver.

You can either take a moment to "politely" tell an engraver the truth or do nothing and be a part of the problem. An accessory to the crime in (I like how Ray puts it) taking stuff "out of circulation".

You certainly won't hurt the feelings of the guy that's out to pick your pocket but for the guy that does care, you could very well be the one he never forgets.

It seems like people are afraid to hurt an artist's feelings, but sometimes the brutal honesty is the best thing for an artist to hear. All I can ask is for that honesty from anyone when I show my work. Harsh critics do more to strengthen you than polite liars.

Or it could simply be that there are better things to do in life than wasting time argueing the point with someone that will probabley never understand what you are saying in the first place. Why bother?

The next time that you get someone that haggles with you or starts giving you the run around and messing you about.........send them off to the rotary tool guy or whoever the local butcher is. That way you do the world a favour by introducing two people that deserve each other..........sort of like a community service for engravers

Cheers
Andrew

Quote; Ron Smith,

Anyway, your volcanic is beautiful. I wish I could afford it. I would buy it.

Why didn't you post some pictures of it on the forum? I am sure everyone would like to see it.




Thank You my Friend,

That is one of the highest compliments I could get.

I have the gun apart at the present, "Rust Blueing" the barrel and lever. When I get him back together, I will post a picture.

I also like what you said about creating history instead of repeating it, You really walking down my road.


Christopher form West Virginia, - you are a hard man, men like you do push folks to a higher level of excelience. I do not think you are wrong, I only hope that your style of help is selected for those that won't learn any other way.

I too, have learned, the way you learned. As for me, I fear that I have caused more offence than good.

You're right Charlie. There's no place for a dying breed in the fragile world of political correctness ... except for folks to have someone to unanimously disagree with at every opportunity.

Once again I've come to the conclusion that I'm simply spinning my wheels here.


Good luck with your pistol and take care.

Chapi said:

It seems like people are afraid to hurt an artist's feelings, but sometimes the brutal honesty is the best thing for an artist to hear. All I can ask is for that honesty from anyone when I show my work. Harsh critics do more to strengthen you than polite liars.

Click to expand...

I was thinking this same way the other day while my wife & I were watching American Idol, I said, doesn't anyone love some of these people enough to tell them they suck, so they won't get on national television & embarrass themselves. They need to learn to sing before they show up to this thing. And it happens in all areas of life. And I know we need to be polite and diplomatic but we all need to learn how to tell the truth for their good. Like someone said earlier, every artist has his or her own fan club but we have to understand that most of the time they're speaking and bragging on us out of their love for us & a lot of times their ignorance of our field. My brother brags on my knives to the point that embarrasses me. I'm glad he likes what I do & I'm always trying to get better and also in the engraving but I'm not Warren Osborn or Buster Warenski and I'm not Sam Alfano or any of you other fine engravers. The only way we will ever grow to become like these that we admire is to have people be brutally honest with us. I guess it just depends on the situation. As for me, I want people to be honest with me and help me to grow in all that I do. Just my two cents.

Dwayne

Honesty is a very good policy, and deems respect. Someone may not like me, but at least they can respect me because I try and be honest with my opinions. Vise Versa. Christopher, I wouldn't go on a verbal attack. You could offer some advice or point this person in a good direction by offering this website info. Calling someone a hack is very unprofessional and somewhat ogerrish, and the public can clearly see that your work is probably better than mine, or another persons, and if they don't they may need glasses or they are not your customer. I have learned that most things are hardly worth being a jerk about, and a abrasive responce would surely portray insecurity. I have learned these lessons the hard way, and I always have regreted using caustic words or action. Weldon, Andrew, and Ray, your resonses are honest, curtious, and respectful. I might be green, but I am growing towards the light. I am the oger, Seth

Look buddy ... whether my use of the term "hack" is taken literally or figuratively .... you understand the concept in one word or less.

Something entirely different comes to mind when you pump up your friends on a public forum by labeling me oggerish and unprofessional.


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Don't be concerned Andrew & Sam ... I'll not post on this thread again.

Christopher, I was using the terms ogerrish and unprofessional to describe my own past actions and mistakes. Only to keep anyone else from repeating my mistakes. I am sorry I offended you in any way, it was not my intention in any way or form. I was only pointing out that my former actions made me look unprofessional and I had felt like an oger. I should have just kept my yap shut. Sorry, Seth

.... ok I'll post one more time ...



It's all good Seth ... no apology needed. I may not agree with your opinion or like it but I respect it.

Thank-you for your honesty