Question: Cast iron lap for bulino graver

Hmmmmmmmmm. Sound interesting, I think I'll give it a whirl. I have found when using
ceramics there is a definite order to how you polish the facets of a graver for the best
effect. Things like grinding direction, pressure while grinding, and movement can change
how a graver will cut. I like to put radius on heal facets.

The cast iron lap sound like something interesting to play with.
Talk to ya later,
Jim

I didn't intend to start a controversy when I asked for help finding a lap, but would like to take a moment to express some of my thoughts which I'm sure are shared by others new to the wonderful and challenging world of engraving.

First and foremost, THANK YOU to all the truly gifted people who took the time and effort to reply to my post. You have no idea how impressive and helpful your posts and imput are to the rest of us. It's like being able to freely converse with Tiger Woods about golf or Joe Montana about football. We are truly blessed. I can't begin to emphasize that enough.

I came to engraving to late in life. I made the mistake of seeing the movie "The Bucket List". For those who haven't seen it the main plot is of two men diagnosed with terminal cancer who make a list of things they would like to do in their remaining time. Well I've wanted to learn to engrave for a long period of time and never made time for it. I have a full time real job (medical technologist), part time gunsmith business, build bamboo fly rods as well as fish and hunt. With that in mind you can see I don't have much "free time".

When I decided to take the plunge and start down the engraving road I had no idea one needed to be an accomplished artist, tool expert, computer guru, have a thick wallet, have lots of spare time, and the patience of Job. Unfortunatly, I have none of the above, but I do have the desire to learn, and I believe I can overcome the above WITH YOUR HELP! That has been the trump card!

Believe me, I know buying an airplane doesn't make one a pilot, but one has to start somewhere. If I can stand on Christian's shoulders and achieve results it would have taken me years to learn on my own I'm going to do that in a heart beat. While I don't have a specific terminal disease, unfortunatly, we all do. We are all finite and I want to get the most accomplished I can. I know it requires a lot of hard work and an investment of time with tool in hand, but we all need a place to start.

Thank you for your patience and understanding, and mostly for your investment in us newbees and belief we are worth investing in. All the best, Don Hansen.

Don,

The thing you do have ..."Desire", is the one thing you absolutely need above everything else if you want to be an engraver!!

Keep at it!!

WL

Don, I echo Weldon's words. But remember you don't need to be a tool expert or a computer whizz to engrave. As Weldon say's, 'desire' to engrave is the primary requirement. Next, a bit of manual dexterity to sharpen tools correctly and that can be as simple as placing graver to stone...cost, negligible. Computer's aren't necessary as engravers managed for thousands of years without them. Artistic bent is also desirable, but if you didn't have that leaning you probably wouldn't consider taking up engraving in the first place. You don't have to be Leonardo Da Vinci to engrave though.

So, with enough desire to engrave you can start with tools costing 10's of Dollars not $100's or even $1000's. In fact even if you were to fully equip a studio from scratch with all air assisted tools and scope you could probably still do it cheaper than setting up with say, a laser engraving machine (and I'm not talking the cheap Chinese ones on Ebay but proper US made ones).

Hi Don,
I wouldn't worry to much about not having time, equipment, money and computer
training. What we do have focus, on the subject. I know I started out with none of the
above. If you let it, engraving will keep you occupied about 90% of the time. You do
to sleep but then you can dream about engraving I suppose.

As far as time goes I find that I still have to make living, and thus do lot building of ring
and diamond setting. This doesn't leave as much time as I like to devote to Scroll study
and bulino. You do, what you make time for and I am getting more balinan and scroll work now.

Controversy is simple a sign that the Art form/Craft is not stagnating in time honor
way doing thing, but is advancing with new and different methods of doing engraving.
Controversy is actually a healthy sign of dynamic art form, as long as it done civil manner.
The moderators are usually on there toes. In my opinion the Café handle quite well.

So, I hope you will enjoy engraving as much as I have.
Talk to ya later,
Jim

Wow....what Phil said really hits home with this bloke...power, hammer and chisel...100degrees or whatever...important is what you have in your heart and mind...the getting there is what is important....in the bush you "make due" and the bush has made some great artists...look at some of our "Native" artists that use dust from rocks mixed with animal fat !

Guys

Power Graver Vs Hammer and Chisel controversy reminds me of the story about the M1 Garand Rifle and the 03 Springfield.

It seems the military was having a problem getting the Old Salts to accept the new automatic M1 Garand Rifle.

The old Salts loved their Bolt Action Rifle.

So they decided to have a contest between the Best, most experienced 03 Springfield Shooter and a Raw, untrained Green recruit with the the new automatic M1 Garand Rifle.

After the alloted time the Old Salts was so proud he had placed every shot in center of the bulls Eye.

Then they counted the recruits score, even though he had shot many more shells, he still had more Bulls Eyes.

The same holds true for the Power Graver.

I think the new person will find it easier to do acceptable work with the new technology.

Ken

The big question is where do you get the diamond polishing compound? And then what grade of past do you select? Boy this "new" technology really can hurt the "old" head!!

Ken, the 'power graver' does a couple of things 1) it cuts down on the learning curve and need to build muscle memory so that the novice can spend more time perfecting his/her cuts and concentrate on graver control and 2) enables an engraver to either work quicker or longer by cutting down on fatigue. That's about it. There are a couple of other things it does such as stippling and hammering but for the engraver that's about it. There is no magic bullet. If you can cut well using push gravers or hammer and chisel your work will be able to compete with those who use power.

I hope Phil will forgive me for mentioning him (and I hope he'll feel free to jump in if I've got anything wrong or if there's anything he'd like to add) but until very recently everything he did was hand pushed or chiseled. Nearly all his photos are of pieces done before he went over to air assistance and I defy anybody to say that his work is not equal to or greater than the very best who use powered gravers. Likewise, Philipe Griffnee uses hammer and chisel and he is amongst the top engravers in the world.

With engraving do not make the mistake of getting hung up on tools. Use what works for you and the quality of your work will shine through no matter what tools you use.

With engraving do not make the mistake of getting hung up on tools. Use what works for you and the quality of your work will shine through no matter what tools you use.[/QUOTE]

Are you kidding Marcus, that mostly what we do. Just yesterday I had a nice red geyser.:thumbs up:

Jim

Re: cast iron laps and charging them

You might be able to use a plain back chuck adaptor for an iron lap. Also, you can probably get cast flat iron plates from mc master-com, Msc, Enco, etc. Both pieces will require maching on the lathe. Also, in toolmaking cast iron laps are used to hone and polish flat parts. Any iron lap needs to be charged. Apply diamond spray, or compound to the lap. For an iron lap, find something very hard hard such as a big dowel pin and put it and either make up a handle or use a piece of flat stock covered with teflon or a similar friction reducing coating. Put the plate on a well supported table, lay the pin on top of the lap, and then place the steel bar on top of the dowel pin, and apply a lot of downward pressure and roll the pin back and forth like you are making cookie dough and roll all over the surface until you are sure you have every thing covered.
Use some solvent to clean excess diamond from the lap. The main purpose of this is to embed the diamond dust into the iron, any loose diamond dust wil roll between the graver and the lap damaging both. If you use a pin that is not hard material, diamond dust will be torn out of the lap and embed in the softer pin. Never lap or charge the lap with a piece of soft material, it will tear all of the diamond from the lap. Another possibiliy is to use a mylar sheet coated with diamond. Places such as MSC and Geisswein carry these, I believe there are some that have a glue back, or use a thin coat of adheasive and stick it to the back of one of the aluminum plate laps and use that to polish.

Hope this helps!
Pappy

Old versus New

I was searching for the treads of Christian DeCamillis, and that is why I found this discussion.

When John, Phil and Martin talked about the old way, the way they learned and still do, I understand that is is their way. They found their own way after they learned.

But I don't understand why I should try to make fire with fire stones to make some diner, when I have a lighter in my pocket.

I can't hardly imagine if Phil uses a scope instead of is X10 loupe, how is engravings would look like, I think Phils has magic eyes and he sure don't need a scope.

But as I am also a photographer as well, I know some older classic photographers thought Digital Photos where inferior to pellicule.
There is nothing wrong with pellicule photography, and there is nothing wrong with digital photography, with both techniques the photographer can make art. Nevertheless there are more possibilities with digital photography.
But one has to be master to know how to use it.

So I think we always must have an open mind for new ideas.

arnaud

Where to Purchase a Cast Iron Lap

Here is a web site that has Cast Iron Laps for $80.00 USD. They are 6in dia. x 1/2inch thick with 1/2 inch dia. hole.
http://www.diamondtech.com/products/catalogue/cast_iron_polishing_lap.html