Question: Cast iron lap for bulino graver

Don H · May 18, 2009

Christian DeCamillis stated he used a cast iron lap with diamond paste to polish the cmax graver he used in his DVD "Basic Technique for Bulino Engraving". He felt this gave him the high degree of polish nessicary to produce black appearing cuts.

I've not been able to come up with a viable source for a cast iron lap. There is one available in Thiland, but shipping is more than the cost of the lap. One other person advertised on the internet but had no phone number, doesn't except credit cards, and has a "temporary" address for an item he may or may not have in stock.

Can anyone help me with this? Is there something magic about a cast iron lap? What little I have been able to find out is this technology is quite old and not being used much anymore according to some of the people I contacted. What might be a suitable substitute for cast iron?

Thanks for your help, Don Hansen.

vanknife · May 18, 2009

Don Have a look at this link

http://www.gemworld.com/CastIronLapPrep.asp

Cheers

"VAN"

Don H · May 18, 2009

Thanks for your reply Van. I did find that site but don't really want to make a lap if I can avoid it. One gets back to the same problem - finding a proper piece of cast iron to make the lap then the time involved making it. There are many grades of cast iron and I don't know which one would be the proper choice or where to find a casting to begin with. I didn't have any more luck with finding castings than the finished lap.

Unfortunatly, this is the gentleman with no phone. I emailed him over a week ago as his site stated laps were "sometimes" available. I'm not to keen on sending a certified check to a "temporary" address without knowing if the product is even available.

Phil Coggan · May 18, 2009

You know, sometimes I have to bite my tongue but there are others when I just have to say something, and i've said this before.
There is way too much emphesis on tool angles and technical bits and bobs. What's the difference between 120 and a 110deg tool......I have no idea, I have about ten V gravers on my bench at the moment and I can honestly say that I have absolutely no idea what angles they are.

As for using laps and whatever?!!! For fine bulino work, to get a good edge get a good arkansas stone and some oil, what oil, just about anything as long as it's not thick sump oil :big grin:

There IS no secret with magical tools just common sense and a technique which is individual to each person, and come's with practice and trial and error, if your looking for a quick fix your out of luck!

Phil

Marcus Hunt · May 18, 2009

Phil, you are so right, what a breath of fresh air. In fact I'd go as far as to suggest that novices should try cutting everything on a scroll with one graver; the spine, the inside and outside work, any background removal (single point), and the shading. This is a good exercise and anyone that tries it can see just how much can be done with just one tool geometry. The important thing is to find what works for you and to stick with it. What works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else. If you can't find a cast iron lap then experiment with something else.

Don H · May 18, 2009

Thank you Phil and Marcus! I very much appreciate your candid replies. I had a gut feeling there was nothing magic about a particular way of polishing the graver, but being new I just wasn't sure. I guess most of this comes with experience and there's only one way to get that. I just haven't been at this long enough (two monthes) to know when something is critical and when its not. I didn't want to spend a lot of time trying to reinvent the wheel when it's already been done.

I'll take your suggestions and polish up with what I have and give it a try. Thanks again, Don Hansen.

Ron Foster · May 18, 2009

Amen ! . . . Phil & Marcus

I think Winston Churchill is still (or was, until recently)
using industrial hack saw blades ground into an onglette-shape.

Ron Foster

Glenn · May 18, 2009

Can I put in my 2 cents? Before knocking the idea of a cast iron lap, give it a little thought. I'm in the hydraulic business. I use cast iron laps to lap mating parts. It works extremely well. It holds the diamond grit so a very good polish can be obtained. Ceramic laps wont hold the grit as well as cast iron. Chris was talking about the polish for a better cutting edge. I really like the fact that some one thinks outside the box. Thanks to grs for starting using air for tools.

Marcus Hunt · May 18, 2009

Hi Glenn, I don't think we're knocking the idea of a cast iron lap. Far from it, Chris discovered something that works for him and it may work for lots of others. By all means try something if it appeals to you but don't blindly think that because you happen to try say, for arguments sake, Phil's graver geometry it will make you able to cut or shade like him. It may be totally unsuitable for someone else but fine for him. Likewise, if you can't find a cast iron lap but want a high polish there is nothing to stop you, as you say Glenn, 'thinking outside the box' and coming up with your own lap or polishing system that works for you.

Martin Strolz · May 18, 2009

Phil,
your so right! I often found that gravers that were sharpened quite precise (on the hone) did not handle that well. They simply were too sharp. In industrial manufacturing nearly all cutting tools have a radius on the cutting edge. Christian deCamillis showed me an example of cuts produced by this graver and they looked comparatively very dark. I have no information how much of this effect is visible after heat treating the gun.
Sharpening done by hand alone takes very long time to learn. Anyone who cannot sharpen by hand and ownes a sharpening hone wants to obtain some information on angles. That is understandable and hence triggers the discussion. When the sharpening problem is gone, often well cut engraving of mediocre design is produced. Better put some more priority on the really important things....
Martin

Martin Strolz · May 18, 2009

Don,
look for small cast iron brake discs.

Ron Foster
This steel works well as graver or chisel. Use only the lowest part of the blade and just grind off the teeth. But it does not pay off as it takes too long to produce a tool.
When you grind the hacksaw blades on the wheel, there are only very few, orange coloured sparks. Compare the sparks to those of a bought graver. The light path of the spark is curved at the end. Spark testing is not easy, but you will see that the material tested is basically similar. The material is alloyed tool steel, containing 0,6% carbon, wolframite, molybdenum, vanadium and often colbalt. It is called high speed steel.
Read more on spark testing here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing
Martin

Ron Foster · May 18, 2009

Thanks, Martin, for the great hacksaw info.

I figured, like you said, that the spine was tempered differently
to give it more spring--than the hardened, "toothed" area.

I, also, agree that the "trade-off" vs. purchased gravers will
probably be lost--due to the large amount of grinding required
to shape them.

Appreciate the feedback.

Ron Foster

lesholmes · May 18, 2009

A possibility seldom discussed is using the GRS ceramic lap dry (no diamond spray). Using my microscope at highest power I find it to produce a very high polish (very small sratches.)

Christian DeCamillis · May 18, 2009

I finally have time to answer this thread -- I've been traveling the last couple of weeks at shows in Switzerland and France.

GRS will be offering a cast iron lap in the next couple of weeks. I don't know what the price will be, but I'm sure it will be reasonable.

Before everybody starts talking about what to use and not to use -- in the video, I don't tell anyone what to use; I just show what I use and have found that the cast iron laps works the best for me. They have been using cast iron laps to polish diamonds forever, so I thought I would use it to polish the carbide I am now using. What I discovered was that the highly polished graver gives you the different colors in the cut. If you make the same cuts without the polish, you won't get the same results. The other reason for the high polish on the carbide is because it helps the edge not to chip and break. This is something that they're now finding in the machine tool industry. Also, carbide should not be overheated when grinding and polishing because it does affect its strength. You won't get as dark of colors using highly polished steel as you do with the highly polished carbide. I tried other than iron laps and got great polishes, but the edges were slightly rounded and the cuts are just not the same.

My video is about the technique and in the video I say you can use whatever you want -- hand push, power push, geometry of gravers, etc. The techniques don't change. The discovery of these different geometries was something I decided to share so that the progressive thinking people can experiment for themselves and see what happens.

I find it very interesting that when someone discovers something new which involves higher technology, people say it's not necessary, yet have no problem using these technologies -- i.e., using the computer for design layout.

Chris

canadian · May 18, 2009

Graves Lapidary used to make a cast iron polishing lap - (mihenite). I have one and I use it with diamond grit, 50 000 for polishing.
You may contact them and find out if they still make these.
Here is the link: http://www.gravescompany.com/

Good luck.

Boris

Weldon47 · May 18, 2009

Les,

99.9 percent of the time I sharpen by hand & I too use the GRS ceramic lap without diamond spray. I replaced a worn out ruby stone I had used for years with the ceramic and so far, I've been happy. The cast iron is interesting though & perhaps I'll give it a try soon.

Chris: thanks for the tips. We all have to try this stuff out and see what works best for each of us where we are. It is a confidence builder when we get a tip or some bit of expertise from a master is shared. There are a number (of masters) here and I appreciate the sharing of knowledge & the time it takes to do so.

Thanks,

Weldon

jerrywh · May 19, 2009

It's not the guitar that makes the music. It's the hand holding the pick.

Marcus Hunt · May 19, 2009

Christian DeCamillis said:
My video is about the technique and in the video I say you can use whatever you want -- hand push, power push, geometry of gravers, etc. The techniques don't change. The discovery of these different geometries was something I decided to share so that the progressive thinking people can experiment for themselves and see what happens.

I find it very interesting that when someone discovers something new which involves higher technology, people say it's not necessary, yet have no problem using these technologies -- i.e., using the computer for design layout.

Chris, please don't think in my replies that I was attacking you or your methods. If it came across that way I apologise sincerely. What I (and I think Phil also) was saying is don't necessarily always follow what someone else does blindly but use something as a starting point and as you say "Experiment for themselves and see what happens."

By experimentation the engraver will find what works best for them. For example, using the dual angle fixture to sharpen gravers; established geometries will work but if confronted with an awkward area to engrave the Dual Angle allows the engraver to experiment and adapt his/her tools to the situation. If he/she only ever uses a 120Âº graver at 15Âº lift it might be difficult to engrave steeply concave surfaces. But with an adaption to the lift angle they may be able to cut the same piece with relative ease.

I also feel that modern technology just needs to be seen as another tool. For example, I use a pencil and scriber to lay out my designs directly on to a piece. Without this skill the H&H 'round actions' that I'm working on would be nigh on impossible to design on a computer, because every surface is convex, and if it were possible it would take much longer than the old fashioned method. That's not to say though that if I was working on flat pieces, such as bracelets, and wanted to repeat the design many times over then the computer would be extremely useful.

Thanks for sharing your discoveries Chris. :yes

Phil Coggan · May 19, 2009

Marcus Hunt said:
Chris, please don't think in my replies that I was attacking you or your methods. If it came across that way I apologise sincerely. What I (and I think Phil also) was saying is don't necessarily always follow what someone else does blindly but use something as a starting point and as you say "Experiment for themselves and see what happens."

The same goes for me Chris, what a lot of novice engravers (Not all) seem to think is that if they get the tools sharpening system and all the so called extras then they will automatically be able to engrave like the pro's, ok, these items will give them a head start but there's no magic fix.
Power gravers are excellent, at one time as Marcus knows I was against them, but someone who has never engraved can start cutting from scratch. Those engravers who have never used hand push should try it especially on a curved surface, it will be an eye opener for them!

Phil

Christian DeCamillis · May 19, 2009

I couldn't agree more about the magic bullet. I think though that these new ideas help people move along faster. There is no skipping over the basic fundementals, and nothing will replace spending time cutting, practicing and drawing. I am still traveling, but when I return I will start a thread about sharpening and using these new graver materials. One thing Martin said is so true ,often for many things your graver can be to sharp. Well thats for the next discussion. Talk to all in a couple days Chris

Question: Cast iron lap for bulino graver

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