Some thought on posting photographs

In another tread posted by KC Steve he says "Ok - all you other guys who didn't want to 'compete' with Marcus and Phil - just post your pictures here and they should look good."

I realise he was being facetious but he makes a very valid point. Recently I started posting some more of my work because going back through my posts I suddenly realised that I was giving advice with no pictures of my work to back myself up. So I got to thinking that perhaps some novices might start to think "Well, who is this guy who gives advice when we can't see what he produces?" But Steve's comments started me thinking that some folks may feel over awed by some of the stuff they see posted on the forum (there are times when I certainly am!) and this could put them off posting their pictures.

The way I see it is this forum isn't a competition of who can post the most pictures of their work or the best piece. It's a place for all comers, a place to educate and get educated and to share. Hopefully it's also a place of inspiration.

Some of the guns you see engraved here (not necessarily mine I hasten to add) will basically go straight into some wealthy individual's collection and may only ever be seen by that person and a few close friends or acquaintances. That is what kills or stops dead engraving as an art. The greater world rarely, if ever, get to see such fabulous works of art let alone a novice engraver. 5 years ago you'd be lucky to see some great engravings in a handful of books. Now you have the actual artist showing his/her work and willing to give tips on how they did what they did. I don't know how many of you novice engravers out there realise how 'closed shop' engraving was until the last couple of years and what a huge seed change has happened. Engravers rarely, if ever shared like we do now.

Kim Pember and DJ Glasser of GRS have had the vision to bring engravers together from all over the world to meet and share and this vision has been taken up by Sam who has expanded this vision to allow engravers of all abilities (plus folks who just appreciate engraving) to communicate via this forum. It matters not what tools we use, what colour or sex we are, or even what religion we are here to share ideas, to educate or be educated, and finally, to inspire others or be inspired.

No engraver, no matter how long they've been engraving, knows it all or can't learn anything new. So please, no matter how poor you may perceive your efforts at engraving do not let a picture posted by a professional engraver of considerable experience put you off posting your efforts for critique. It's one of the greatest ways of getting advice ever invented and something I wish had been around when I was an apprentice.

Marcus Hunt said:

So please, no matter how poor you may perceive your efforts at engraving do not let a picture posted by a professional engraver of considerable experience put you off posting your efforts for critique. It's one of the greatest ways of getting advice ever invented and something I wish had been around when I was an apprentice.

Click to expand...

I didn`t :big grin:

Just wait till my parcel containing that sharpening template shows up.....

The sharing is the most awesome part of this whole adventure! Thanks to all who post (and don't just lurk!)

Marcus, well said and a great post! I well remember the "old" days, being old myself.

Regards, Sam

Thanks Marcus, that was very well said, and you and the many other very talented engravers that post here are indeed an inspiration.

Marcus, I realise very well what the Café is about, you describe the point of view of it clearly.
I also understand the initiative of Steve, and it is probably a good one.

The fact you realised that you where giving critique on novices, while you didn't show your own work, OK, but therefore I have read the interviews.
Indeed at first I just "knew" Sam Alfano. Al the other masters I had to find out who is who.

In previous treads it was already mentioned that novices are trying to imitate the beautiful engravings they see of the masters, and that they should start at the begin.

I can only speak for myself, and I want to learn a lot from all those craftsman that do wonderful design and engravings. Why my "practice plates" where critiqued different than some others, I suppose it has to do with beeping open for it.

I just make a remark on Phil's Greener, and I'm not sure if I have done right.
I sure did it with great respect and not to make a blame.
But if I didn't, I fool myself and all the others who only say "Very Nice"

So if this place is something to make engraving more popular and to share know how, we all must be open for some critiques.
Otherwise, the attitude in the Café is that the masters are always right, and the novices are scared to show their work, and can only agree with the masters instead of asking the why's and how's.

That what I learned in the last months is a lot, and other novices have told they where in my wake. And sure that is good, but they should try to show their own learning proces.

And sure I wont dare to doubt about your mastership, but when I see at your latest Spyderco Kiwi, I have questions about the design, perhaps others have them too, but no one will ask them.
Although I don't think you only show your work just to show us how good you are, perhaps also you want improve your skills and point of view. But I'm not sure.

So sure the attitude and kindness in this place, I have never experienced it before in a forum, and it should stay that way, but being to kind all the time does not really improve our skills.

arnaud

Not wanting to sound too melodramatic here, but when I think about the internet, I am reminded about how scholars for centuries mourned the loss of the Library at Alexandria, and I wonder how much more information is made freely available to the world(the World!) now. Think about how many times over the last thousand years individual engravers of metal re-discovered and lost the secrets to sharpening their tools. That's just one microscopic portion of information that we will have from now on. Things are going to progress much faster now that individuals of a discipline no longer have to figure out basics through trial and error. Thank you for this post Mr. Hunt.

Another reason not to fear posting your work is shown by Arnaud's thread on his knife design.

Not only do you Master Engravers (and all of the rest) show us the kinds of things we could do, you step in and work with us to help us along the way! :thumbs up:

Personally, while I love seeing the really good stuff I also greatly enjoy seeing the work of people of all levels. Sometimes I see something that's just perfect for me to adopt at my own level, sometimes I see an example of a mistake I make - seems like they're always easier to recognize in someone else's work.

Heck, if nothing else posting your work now will make it easier to see your progress later.

Well said Marcus. I know for a fact that Sam's intentions when opening the Cafe was for all who love the art new and old would be welcomed with opened arms. I remember talking to Sam when he started the forum and he explained to me that he didn't want anyone to feel intimidated about posting their work. I don't think anyone can stand back and look at their work and say that it is absolutely perfect in every way down to every cut. Originally when I found an interest in engraving I was posting on the knife forum. This was before the Air graver forum and Engravers Cafe. I posted some real crap, I felt a little like I was intruding (but it was in my own mind) those guys were great and helped by critiquing and guiding me. Someone just starting or finding an interest in engraving I think is missing out by not posting and asking for advice. The same goes for the seasoned professionals when posting it helps someone new to the art immensely. Some of the worlds best engravers participate in discussion here. People are very professional at the Cafe if you don't ask you won't receive. Put up your work ask for the critique and advice take it back to the bench and you'll be amazed at what happens.

I have to agree with everything said here. We have a fantastic resource at our fingertips 24/7 no matter where you live in the world.

Techniques, knowledge, information, inspiration, learning, teaching, camaraderie, humor, friendship. It's all here and all you have to do is ask, listen and join in.

Cheers
Andrew

+++1 Marcus, your pictures are an inspiration to us all.
Please continue, eye candy is welcome.
:thumbs up:
gailm

Marcus
You make some very good points in your post. When I started as a bench jeweler it was very difficult to get someone to show you how to do anything but basic bench skills. They did not want to train there competition.
We are fortunate to have you and others here to give us tips,advice,and or comments about our work as this will make the engraving arts better for all of us.
Thanks ,Dennis

Marcus,

Very well said. I suspect that the combination of newer technology and the internet are allowing a Golden Age of engraving to blossom.

I suspect that with the learning curve being shortened for creating "satisfactory" work, many more people will want to take up engraving. The fact that we can interact with the Masters like yourself via this forum is a delight. Jim

Dennis, you make a good point about "training the competition" and for some of us 'old timers' it can be quite scary. But something tells me that the more good hand engraving is seen by the public the greater the demand for it will be.

I don't know what things are like in the USA at the moment, but in the UK at least scrolls are everywhere. From advertising on tv and in magazines through to fashion and even tatoos, scrollwork is out there. Some of it isn't very good but some designs really capture the imagination and could be interpreted onto jewellery but I haven't seen that yet. Here I think is an untapped market provided we can hit the right price mark; this could be where Ron Smith's 'piddling' (an idea shared to everyone from a Master engraver) comes in to it's own.

But there is poor engraving out there too. If you want an example Google the new Purdey Sporter. I heard rumours that this is laser engraved and the word 'Purdey' is on the underside but I'm not sure about the scrollwork. All I can see when I look at the large scroll example it scrolls growing the wrong way and damaging the design aesthetically. Now if this was designed by an engraver who taught him scrollwork? One of the fundamentals of scroll design has been breeched so it just looks plain wrong.

If you post your work here someone will endeavour to put you right if there is such a glaring mistake. But that's the thing, posting hard work and then getting it criticized
can be hard to take but it's the only way to learn and move forward. Hopefully though, this process will help the budding engraver understand and improve so that the work eventually presented to the world at large is of, at the very least, sound quality.

Keep cutting and keep posting your work.

New Chum...

Thank you for this post....I have been busy looking at the fine work, and with each I think...."gads, what am I doing here, these guys are GOOD !" And how true about how lucky we are to have this place....for many years I tried to share this experence with other engravers here in Oz, and been put off by lack of interest in sharing, or the vast distances that pull us apart....

Now at last, after many years in the wilderness I have found home....so, now to take some pics of my poor efforts and ask for your help in getting better...it will mean for me to bear up to showing off my work to other than customers that frankly have little idea what is good...hell they think I am the greatest...(Lets keep this place from them of I will be out of business in short order....LOL)

training the competition

Great thread, Marcus!

As for training the competition, most of us who've been at this 20 or 30 years or longer know how difficult it was to get started back then. I believe that that the 'secrecy' associated with hand engraving (as well as other trades) was something that continued from times when craftsmen depended on the population of their small town or village to feed their families. To teach someone else engraving meant that the slices of the pie became smaller. Today the world is our marketplace and we are not limited to small-town populations for income. We can thank the internet and shows such as the FEGA show in Reno which brings gunmakers, engravers, and customers together.

Of course no one is obligated to share techniques with others, but there are thousands of others who will, and none of us has the power to keep someone from becoming an engraver if they are determined to become one. It certainly didn't work for those who declined sharing information with me, and if anything, it made me more determined than ever. I should add that I never resented it, but respected their decision and moved on.

There's never been a better time to learn our art!

~Sam

Thanks for that Marcus. I also remember my apprenticship 1969 (unfortunately cut short). I found there was little inspiration or support. No classes at art school for engraving,; lettering only. As I have only recently picked it up again, adding tools to my bench as I go along, plus Sam's DVD's. I not only study the experts photo's but also novice's. I have said it before, I have learned a tremendous amount since joining the cafe in the past few months. Yes, your photos' have put me off showing mine at times, but I am improving and hope to post something soon for critical help. As for novices such as myself, I think it is important to remember, that we really don't need all the expensive equipment when starting off. We are not experts, and we need to start back to basics. I think it's sad when I see a beginner diving in to the deep end, filling his bench with everything you experts use, and find they are unable to use it within a couple of months, then selling up. Tony

I have just read this post from beginning to end and would like to say that this is one of the most interesting post I have read.

You see, I am one of these intimidated people you are talking about, and it makes me a little more likely to ask what I think are stupid questions and post some of my terrible work. On the other hand as I have often said, the masters of their craft whether it be engraving or anything else had to start somewhere. The Master Engraver had to make his first cut, the certified welder had to strike his first arc, and rest assured that the first attempt was not perfect. Marcus this article has really helped me to rethink my thinking on posting and asking questions, and thanks to KCSteve for starting something that I personally think is a great thread.

I realize that you will not get the responses that you hope for, I also realize a lot of people read you post and look at your pictures that would like to comment but are afraid of hurting someone's feelings. Rest assured that you can say anything to me that needs to be said and I will take it as constructive criticism. I hope I have made myself clear on my thoughts, sometimes it is easier to talk than to type your thoughts, or at least it is for me. I just don't want to come off as dumb or stupid.

Thanks to this great thread, I will be posting a lot more in the future, hope you don't get tired of it.

Well Marcus, this thread just gets better and better. It was the idea of sharing techniques and ideas of engraving, along with educating the public as to what gun engraving is, that spurred the start and development of FEGA so many (28) years ago. The advent of the internet and engraving forums has presented that ability to the world and for the betterment of all.

My own development as an engraver was without such help and I remember the first time that I realized I was improving was when I stopped thinking..."Wow, look what I can do" and started thinking..."Oh dear, look what I have done!" With today's resources such progress would not have taken years. I hope everyone interested in engraving can get the maximum use of what is now available!!! S

Carl

Heck, go ahead and post away!

You'll only have a problem if, over time, your work isn't improving.

Me, I'm very happy when I get critiques from Marcus, John B., Ron Smith, Andrew and all the others. To me it says that my work is good enough to be worth their critique.

I keep referring back to Arnaud's knife design thread but it's such a good example. His initial design was ok but included some large and obvious flaws. By the time to get to the end of the thread the design has reached the point where the final few tweaks are on very small things that wouldn't have come close to being noticed in one of the early versions.

Sometimes the difference between 'good' and 'great' is a tiny, tiny thing. Andrew's nice little tutorial he did showing exactly why you want your scrolls to actually touch each other and the borders for example. The plates he cut show how something as trivial seeming as moving a line the width of the pencil line can make a major difference in how the engraving looks.