Thoughts on engraving

If engraving is your passion and you want to do it as a profession then you need a positive attitude. When people tell you that you wont make any money and keep your day job, if you buy into this it will become a self fullfiling prophecy. Instead spend your time and effort on formost practicing ,drawing,and marketing. Next approach it with a business mind, as well as an artists mind they contaridict each other so you must find a blend of the two that works. To use the philosiphy that if I hang out my shingle they will come will get you no where fast. MARKETING is the key,second only to developing good engraving skills.So what to do?
First realize that like any business there are start up costs. The equipment you buy the classes that you take.the books you buy are deductable .When I Hear people say I cant afford to do that, MY ANSWER IS YOU CANT AFFORD NOT TO. If you have to take a loan out then do so ,remember all these things are deductible if you go ahead and purchase them you may end up saving by paying less taxes then if you didnt. Esspecially when you are working a regular job .You need to keep track of your milage used for business that means that when you go to the hardware store to pick up some screws for your workshop not only do you deduct the screws you deduvt the miles and that adds up in a year.
The one mistake I see that someone starting out makes is they want to engrave designs that are far above the basics,which is understandable, but one needs to start at the begining.Draw and learn to cut classic scrolls with simple leaf structures first before trying to get to complicated. A good basic and classic scroll will outshine a poorly designed fancy scroll everytime. Another area that new engravers need to concentrate on is LETTERING. If you dont learn to do good lettering then you might have to keep your day job. I cant believe how many accomplished engravers I talk tom say I dont do lettering. not only is good lettering as beautifull as any scroll or bulino scene, its some of the best money that you will ever make engraving and there is a lot more lettering work out there than gun and knives to engrave. Example to do an oval on a gunstock I charge 150 dollars the total job from layout to cutting is about thirty to fortyfive minutes tops. you do the math. There is an array of lettering jobs out there. I know you are saying but I dont enjoy it as much as engraving a gun or knife,I understand but if you do both you will be able to pay the bills with lettering and concentrate more on the passion the guns and knives etc... The jewelry world is begging for engraving.
This brings me to my final thoughts. Marketing. how do I do that? Make up some plates that contain examples of lettering styles that you do and take them to your local jewelers with a pricelist. and tell them this is availiable. Leave the sample plates with them free of charge to show customers once they know its available and have something to show customers ,that is a real example not a picture or drawing , the work will start coming in. Remember though good lettering as well as good scrolls etc.. starts with a pencil.I have a friend who is a machinist by trade he has been coming over and engraving for a couple of years he had the idea of making some stainless steel pendants round shapes he cuts on the lathe and gives a slight dome to. on these he engraves scrolls, He put them in a local jewelry store and has been selling them. they sell for between 650 and 1200 dollars the store takes 30 percent they take one to one and a half days to engave. again you do the math. Another simple way to market is to go to the local trophy and machine engraving shop. Let them know that you can work on things they cant hold. Caution!!! dont except plated items or you will be buying things you may not want, a slip on these will cost you . Remember that all these jobs you recieve from these sources are also potential customers for an engraving on a knife or gun as well.
Enough for now So remember start at the begining with the basics There is no subsitute for the pecil and paper computers snd such are a great additional tool to the basic pencil and paper copy machines and such as well. Use some of that creativity to turn your passion into your livelyhood Chris

Christian, I totally agree. I already knew that as being a goldsmith that only sells his own work.
I only engrave for 4 moths now, but I have already done some lettering for clients.

My website that is most important to me as I have my shop in a small village, has an extra button for engraving.
Although it is Dutch, here is the link to some practice plates that I also have in my window, with a small text: hand engraving

http://www.juwelenarnaud.be

arnaud

Well said Chris
One of the biggest mistakes I see beginers make is like you said.they copy patterns and styles far above their skill level. While we should all push ourslves to some extent, just copying a Sam or Lindsey scroll , not understanding the whys, hows and what ifs will accomplish nothing. Learn the basics. Improve your visual and motor skills. Invest in yourself. Nothing replaces bench time and paying your dues.

Chris, you are right.
For me the marketing side of business is most difficult.

Chris, Great words of wisdom. Your post should hang above each beginners bench. Self confidence and discipline as you point out is some thing that most of us lose sight of much too often.

Great words Chris!!
This is a great business plan and philosophy for any small business.
Kerry

For the most part I am in 100% agreement with Chris, especially lettering and overly complicated scroll layouts.

However, I think this statment is somewhat misleading

When people tell you that you wont make any money and keep your day job, if you buy into this it will become a self fullfiling prophecy

I am not sure Chris meant this as it sounds, because what he is saying next about marketing is contradicting the above statement completly. I don't believe anyone , regardless of their skills, can go from having great skills to making a living immediatley from those skills. It takes a while for people to get used to you, to accept you, to trust you. Paying your dues so to speak.

How quickly you can bypass this step, is going to depend on your marketing skills, and a bit of luck here and there. My marketing when I was starting as a full time engraver back in the early 80s, was attending one MAJOR gun show a month all over the US. That lead to invite with a novel gun manufacturer to engrave their guns at the SHOT in 1985. That brought my engraving work to a lot of gun writers attention which paid dividends for the next decade.

But I digress, I think keeping your day job is going to be necessary for just about anyone for some period of time as you build up your clientel.

Excellent points Chris and Scott,

Invironment has a lot to do with with your work volume too. If you don't get out and show it, doing it as a job will be next to impossible. Making contacts with people is probably the one most important thing you can do if you intend to do it as an occupation. Anyone who has done it for their livlyhood understands these things. We all did it pretty much the same way with one exception. The public was not nearly so knowledgable as they are today, and so they would not pay much in more practicle times, but that was relative.

One thing my generation of engravers accomplished was making the public aware of why engraving costs so much and they are willing to pay more for it now. That is relative too to these times, but where I had to struggle all through my carrer for these reasons, an engraver today is able to make good money.

I see one day, the engraver will have back the respect that he deserves and once had.


Good comments from guys that have lived it, but invironment plays a big roll, and who you know is very important. Getting into the "loop" will get you into the right circles. Getting educated will too, So Get out there. You will learn more than you ever dreamed about everything that has to do with engraving.

This opportunity wasn't there in my day. As engraving saturates the market, it might go back to that, because the competition will get fierce, but it is wide open like Chris said for the lettering engraver. Good lettering sells merchandise. The next step is learning how to conduct an engraving business if you wish to do it full time.

Forward!!

Ron S

Bravo.....................now all my mistakes have come to light I have to find a way to make corrections. Does anyone have a cure for my being ugly and stupid? This is not only great advice for newbies but also those that have been at it for a while. Paul I agree. The business part is often the most challenging. Back to the drawing board. Pun intended.
Lee

I was talking with my wife this morning about this very subject which prompted me to pick up the laptop and go to this site, and lo and behold here was this thread. Amazing!

I did a bunch of lettering styles on a brass slab destined for a local jewelry store just like what Chris suggested. I had it at the FEGA doin's last year, I know Sam, Ron and a few others saw it yet I have not used it and a year has gone by. This is what happens when you have too many irons in the fire.

I couldn't see opening up myself for failure or to negatively effect the stores reputation should I not be able to turn the work around in the proper time frame so I have sat on it for the time being. I think timing has a lot to do with this as well as what everyone else has said. If I were to do silver bracelets for example, things are going well for a time and then suddenly an influx of orders come in.

While I'm working 11 hours a day building and testing F-22's for the USAF and come home to raise kids, engrave, restore my milling machines, pantographs, restore aircraft clocks for MY customers, learn various software for CAD/CAM, web design, 3D design and the like, it leaves little time to catch up on those store jobs. I would have to choose a priority like this scenario suggests.

When I'm out in the shop engraving a knife like I was yesterday and my 8 year old says "Daddy, will you come out and ride 4 wheelers with me?" Well, that presents me with a choice to make and lets pretend that it was a half dozen bracelets that have been waiting for me to get back to the store rather than that knife. As any of you know that have young ones, that type of thing is a daily occurrence, not to mention the wife's "honey do list".

Things around here are getting done because I have waited for a better time to jump in the ring so to speak. Soon I won't have these little projects that never seem to get accomplished hanging over my head, so that will leave time for doing jobs for a store and I can then feel confident that I can get it done on time which to me is imperative. To jump in too soon is a real good way to ruin any reputation you may develop. By the way, we had fun riding 4 wheelers for a couple hours...

Mike Dubber told me basically the same thing that Chris stated in this thread and is why I made that brass display plate. We are from the same home town and I visit him when I go home to see Mom and them. I went into the store he does engraving for and there was a brass block he made and engraved samples of lettering, scroll work, leaves, borders and an assortment of ornamentation on all sides for sales persons to hand to the customer to see up close.

There are castings of this block available now through FEGA and it is worth every cent. If you are thinking about doing jewelry for a hobby or even a living, this would be a wise purchase for ideas and techniques that are proven daily. I haven't seen much mentioned about this casting on the forums so I thought it would be good to mention it here and you can see exactly what Chris is talking about; you can see what type of things to include on such a plate to take to your jeweler for his use. Be sure to engrave their store name on it before you even show up with it. Best of luck.

Great post Chris.

Thanks,
Peter

Lee,Lee,Lee. Your wife and most of those who know you would argue about you being ugly and stupid----however, if you're looking to cure something, I hear that farming has some pretty interesting side effects.
N'yuk,N'yuk,N'yuk!


P.S. Great words of wisdom,Chris. Well spoken and absolutely "Spot On".

Reply Scott I didnt say that you could jump from one to the other in one leap. The statement about keeping your day job has been something I have heard since I started. When I decided to go to Italy to study I returned completly broke, but it afforded me a lot of work . So it didnt take long before I was off and running. Sure I still worked doing goldsmithing ,but that now became the part time job and engraving full time. I agree with your statement that you have to pay your dues its the same for any kind of career in art., but to think that you will never make enough to be able to quit one for the other.is negative I realize that for some the security of a normal job is necessary, but then where is the security today . Did you ever think that GM would be on the brink of bankrupcy. The investment in the tools classes and plain sweat equity is an investment that you control and not some fund manager it will pay divedens forever unlike the market today.The one thing about knowledge and skills is that once you learn them they are yours forever, no one can take them away ,only when your days end will they. But thanks to the likes of Ron Smith and others who have taught grandmasters classes written books the info can exeed all of us. I think that those like Ron who paved the way for the rest deserve much gratitude Thank You to them Chris

I've read all the posts in this thread several times and decided that depending on how you want to read them they can say what you want, much like a lawyer interprets a law.
That said, I know Chris and Lee are living proof that it CAN work. But I also know Chris and Lee had the passion to pursue this.
Chris's post has great words of wisdom and I don't disagree. However, I also know Chris didn't sit back and get spoon fed. You will only get out of this what you put into it. No, you don't have to "pay your dues" for 20 years but practicing an hour a week doesn't cut it either. This is a modern world of "instant everything" and in many cases that has applied to engraving as well. It is easier to learn engraving now than any other time but you must remember there is no magic bullet. Remember, passion, practice and determination will go a long way.

Chris, sounds like we are saying the same thing about the work, maybe its just that we have different connotations of the prhase “Don’t quit your day job” . To me it’s a music industry saying that means just because you have a few paying gigs, does’nt mean that you can do enough to make it full time. The quitting has to be done when the cash flow can equal the amount to survive on.
I would never say or imply that you can’t make a living engraving. I did it myself, and could name numerous others who have done the same.

For engravers the switch has to come at the right time. Brian Powley recently made that switch after years of maintaining his day job. Brian Hochstrat is one whose work was fantastic right from the get go, but he still had to get accepted by knifemakers and purveyors and be dependant on other sources of income that he had while pushing what he wanted to do most, engrave.

yep, what Rex said too

Great thread Chris and very eloquently put. In order to get anywhere and to develop the necessary skills for anything creative (and engraving in particular) one has to pay ones dues. Those of us lucky to study under a Master have paid with long hours, hard study, cut and bleeding hands, low wages and, even to this day, often leading a feast or famine existence. The crux of the matter is if you want something enough you'll make it work for you in some way or by some means.

However, I do think there are some folks out there who think this is a good or easy way to make a living. Set up costs are relatively low, even if you go the air assisted route. Even classes in engraving, when compared to IT for example, are dirt cheap! But it's not, and never will be, an instant trade. And this is where, I believe, some need to stay with the day job. For some engraving is a hobby and it is a pleasure to create something beautiful. For others, it's a job; a very satisfactory one but still a job. Others are artists who'll take engraving to a different level. Like all artists, some will sore and others will plummet.

What makes the hobbyist/enthusiast different is they are not relying on their hobby for income and this can make for a great deal of individual freedom. And for those unwilling to dance to a client's tune this is where they'll stay. Clients have to be satisfied if the professional engraver wants to eat and this can sometimes mean long and antisocial hours. So as a career, engraving might not be to everyones' expectations.

Like you say Chris, marketing is a huge part of a business plan and needs to be considered.

But one of the things that tells me that someone isn't cut out for dropping the day job is if they have to ask whether or not they should take the plunge and go full time. If you have to ask then you're not cut out for it. If you know it's what you want to do you'll get there whatever the cost.

Excellent post Chris.

What you say applies to just about anything. What you do, weather it be engraving, knitting, plumbing or candle stick making is only one side of the coin and probably the easiest. The business side of things is a whole lot harder because it is the human side of things.

99% of the game is your attitude toward yourself, your fellow man and life in general. Is the cup half empty or half full? A positive outlook on life in general is absolutely essential.

One thing I do know for sure. Jumping in the deep end of the pool without a life jacket you will do one of two things………sink………. or learn to swim really fast!!!

For those that really want it they will learn to swim. The rest tend to sink. But that is pretty much the law of natural selection and applies to anything.

An excellent book that is worth reading is John Kehoe’s “Mind Power†It basically takes the principle that the vibration that you send throughout the universe comes back to you. Send out a good vibe and you get good things happening. Likewise if you send out a bad vibe, then a bad things start happening. All the great philosophers have said it at one time or another………….. You reap what you sew!!

As for luck………well, that’s one of those deals where the harder you work the luckier you get.

Cheers
Andrew

Talking from experience, of trying to sell an engraving service to other jewellers. For to be an engraver,
you need a constant source of canvas to draw and engrave on. Chris is right to a point about that there
is a lot of lettering out there. What you are selling is your style and artistic flair to make an engraving
extraordinary.

For that style to sell, people have to see it. The jeweller has to remember to offer it, if it's not you doing the
selling. That means you either have to have some examples of your work, or pictures that are in front of the
customers constantly. You will only get one customer out of fifty that will buy your service at first. So knowing
how a digital camera works is pretty important, along with programs to make a web page.

Using photos is actually the cheaper method of getting your engraving seen. So documenting is of utmost
importance.

Keeping the web page current, is a task that usually gets done in the off season. Reworking the whole web page once every couple of years is a good idea also. Things I myself have on the to-do list.

I have often thought of jewellery and engraving in fishing terms. I used to tie fly fishing lures and then use
them. I think of jewellery as making flashy golden lures to get women hooked. You not going to catch much if
your fishing a land locked fishing hole. You have to get into a big river and get elbow to elbow with other
fishermen. Maybe you can hook a couple of them on the bait also.

I know very little of gun engraving, but if it was what I chose as a way of making a living. I would
talk to all the private gun shop owners. I would also go to any local gun makers and show my stuff.
The most important thing I would try to get into a gun show with a stack of business cards.

I would say there is one thing you should remember for both styles of work. You maybe can engrave alone,
but other people will make it a living for you. So along with practising scrolls, practise your pitch.

Talk to you later,
Jim

Thank you for the great post, Chris.

lvvp_canada@yahoo.ca

Volodymyr, Toronto, Canada

First off, I found this to be a very interesting topic, and it is interesting to see how others view events that transpire when you decide to become a full time engraver.

My input is this, if a person listens when they are told they cannot do something they, one need to learn not to put so much weight on what others say and two if you want something whole heartedly, nothing will stop you, short of death. But there is the catch, how bad do you want it and what are you willing to sacrifice.

Yes, I have had the fast track to success, but the faster you go the harder you hit the bumps in the road. For what ever reason engraving has come very naturally, not easy, I have worked very hard and have had alot of support, to develop to where I am, both the engraving and business aspects. Call it what you will, paying dues, let things develop, grow the business, what ever label you choose, it is all the same, it takes time for people to know who you are and trust you enough to do any work and then even longer for them to want to pay what you need to survive. So certainly keep the day job until you are at least 75% sure you can make it. If you wait for 100% you will never do it.

In four short years I went from knowing little about engraving, to engraving full time, winning awards, being published in Gun Digest, Knives annual, Blade, ect. and to be honest, I almost quit 6 months into going full time, and back to shoeing horses. I was sitting in the Boise air terminal waiting to go the Blade, and I told my wife, if this show does not go well, I am done. I won't go into the details, but I was tired of being beat down on price, working long hours 7 days a week, being poor, I had had enough. Luckily, 2 things happened at Blade, I picked up a couple good customers, who were not trying to get my work for nothing, and I had a good talk with one of my mentors about how to handle things and that really helped. Being I had learned to engrave but I did not know much about dealing with customers, and I was getting taken advantage of, some by my own doing. So I made the changes he suggested and things started improving, now things are going quite well.

So the point of that little story is to illustrate that, be sure you know what you are jumping into. It is tough for everybody, there is no easy way. It is not enough to simply do good work. You have to go to the right shows meet the right people, learn your business know the direction you want to go and then survive while it all comes together. Do you like Top Romen soup? You won't by the time it does come together. The reward, however, is that I never dread waking up to go to work, I am doing what I was meant to do.