Lindsay Point

First let me say I don't want to start a tool fight.

I started engraving with a Graversmith, 901 hand piece and the Powerhone using mostly the 120°, five months ago.
I have read almost every tip on the Alfano website, also about sharpening. At first I thought I could sharpen the engravers "the old way" using a Arkansas to polish the heel and face.
But As it was very hard to do and I spend more time on sharpening than cutting, I also bought the Powerone.

When I started using the Powerhone my cutting became better. I used the angles Sam illustrates on his website. But from the start I saw that the heel was not parallel with the face. I thought I was doing something wrong until I figured out that the heel couldn't be parallel to the face when using the same angles for the V and the heel.

I already knew about the Lindsay Point, but as English is a little hard sometimes to understand, especially technical terms, I could not find out what was so different.

A few days ago I did an effort trying to understand an finding out about the Lindsay point.
I resharpened a traditional 120° engraver I made from a blank 90° to a 115 Lindsay point.
Sure everyone thinks that his idea is the best, so I was sceptical reading the advantages Lindsay tells about this point.

But I must say that using the Lindsay point for two days now, I can't find out why I should not use the Lindsay point, because everything what is told about this way of sharpening seems to be true.

So I think that most of you master engravers are using these Lindsay angles or at least have tried them.

The advantage I figured out till now is that it is not necessary to hold the engraver like using a knife and fork, that the point stays better in the cutting object.
The cutting faces are bright, and most important seems to me, that cutting very thin shading lines are easier to do.

My question to you is: is there an advantage not to use the Lindsay point?


arnaud

Arnaud: If something works for you and produces better results, then by all means you should use it.

Personally, I sharpen my gravers in the conventional way with a non-parallel heel. If for some reason I need the heel to be taller (carving and sharpening the sides of scrolls and leaves in relief engraving for instance) I will increase the rotation angle on my sharpening fixture a couple of degrees. This will give me a taller cutting edge on the graver without increasing the length of the heel. I make no attempt to make it uniform with the face because I don't really see an advantage in the work I do.

To answer your question if there's a reason you shouldn't use it, I can't think of one. A lot of people use it and love it.

Thanks Sam, you also tell in your tips to try using different angles and so on. It is probably that and my curiosity that inspired me to give it a try.
I also tried a 90°, but your story about the 120° convinced me to use the 120° for most work. I only use the onglette for stone setting till now.
I also think it is good when one starts engraving, not changing to much at a time, as graver control increases by repeating over and over again.

I hope to post a better result of the second shading exercise you started than my first, especially on shading.

arnaud

Hi Arnaud

If it works for you………then use it.

I think this type of philosophy about your tools is essential to engraving. Too often people get locked into the mind set that this is the only way or the only tool to use.

Engravers have individual working habits and styles that they use every day. Some prefer onglettes while others prefer square gravers. Some prefer the conventional points while others prefer parallel grinds with relieved heels…………some prefer no heels at all. 70, 80, 90, 100, 110,115,120 degree gravers all have their place on the work bench.

None of it is right or wrong…………..it is all about what you like using and achieving the desired end result with the least amount of difficulty.

I think it’s essential that those starting out engraving build up a repertoire of gravers and discover their various uses, geometries, strengths and weaknesses. What works where and what doesn’t and why. This enables you to approach different jobs and metals with confidence and problem solve the various styles/techniques of engraving and surfaces you work on.

A good understanding of the tools you use and where to use them is critical to your engraving career.

After a while you will find yourself selecting a handful of tools that you have confidence in and pretty much stick to them.

Cheers
Andrew

I may not be the best to answer this but I will throw in an opinion. What you use or how you grind is totally up to you. Try them all and then delete those you do not like. I personally have many of the Lindsay Templates and find them very useful. I also have Sam's CD and it to is a great resourse. To say one is better is difficult. Steve's templates makes grinding extremly quick and can save time when involved with regrinding in the middle of a project. On the other hand I have learned from years of welding there is no absolute right or wrong. It is what works for each individual. Some of my favorite gravers are a combination of what I got from Sam's CD , Steve's point , and wisdom imparted to me from Scott Pilkington. As they say some things are good right out of the box, some things work better for you with tweeking. Don't know if this answers your question. Try them all and see which best fits your style. Many posts in these forums have stated do not be afraid to make changes to fit your needs. Guide lines are always helpful, but they are only guidelines.

Eric

once you become comfortable with a way of doing things, and it works- then it may be wise to experiment with the ways others work. this way you really expand your arsenal. ultimately making your work easier. i once was strictly limited to 90's, then flats. now i've expanded to all kinds of different gravers, geometries, using the scope, and so on. i think the work is much more enjoyable to be able to rely on a greater diversity of tools and techniques rather than a limited one. thus the value the forum has become to me. the forum has really allowed me to enjoy my work more, as well as do it better. it has also taught me new things to do, such as coin carving.

Could someone explain what a Lindsay point or 120 point are? I am just sharpening my square at 45 degrees and with a 15 degree heel all the way up the side.

Mack,

There are countless threads and posts on this subject for your researching pleasure when you get the time. The "Lindsay point" you hear about is just a 3/32" graver blank ground to a point using a combination of angles that Steve found that worked best for him through experimentation. He settled on different angle sets for different purposes.

The template system he sells comes with 3 templates; one for what is called a "Universal" point which I think is around 118 degrees included angle, then there's the one called "detailing" which is closer to a 90 but I forget the exact angle. The last is the "calligraphy" point which is the widest one and lends itself well for bright cut lettering and the like.

Again they are what he felt were the best angle combinations for the results they achieve in his hands, all are parallel heeled configurations. The "120" you hear people refer to is just the included angle of the V and is a good all around geometry but is a little more difficult to control at first until you get used to it because it won't track as easily as a 90.

Graver geometry, like so many have stated since this forum began needs to be studied and understood. Why do I want a 90 rather than a 120 in this situation, why does my tip keep breaking in that particular metal and how do I keep it from happening so I can get to do some engraving instead of just re-sharpening. We all need to know the how's as well as the why's so we can adjust for things like that.

When we understand why these geometries work the way they do we can run upon any situation and make the custom graver that will work best in that given situation such as a tight concave surface for example. You want to cut the lettering in this hollowed out area without dragging your graver shank across the edges and ruining the project. Understanding how gravers actually cut will allow you to invent or improvise yourself the graver that will get the job done right.

What you have been making is a 90 because of the two 45 degree angles you've been grinding to make your V. I would add here that not all square blanks are exactly square so taking one and assuming it's perfectly 90 degrees square and putting a heel on it and thinking it's done is a mistake. Always grind all your angles. I like your quote Mack! There's a lot of fodder for invention around here; I keep looking for the beat up old red truck that says Sanford & Son on the door...

Thanks for the great info Tim, and as for the quote, I have invented several types of shop machinery, or I should say re invented it so it can be made in a home shop by mostly hand tools. I also have a provisional US patent on a handicapped cane, that utilizes a removable pick up, or grabber tool. If I live to be 100 I will never be able to build what I have already drawn on paper. Sometimes I have trouble sleeping because of it. I call it noise in my attic. Mack

Seems we have the same sickness. Oh well, keeps me outta the taverns

About the Templates,
Steve has got about 9 at the moment. He is building templates for every very interesting graver geometry that come's out of the engraving world.
The beauty of the templates is that it knocks of at least 75% of sharpening time.
Though I have a dual angle grinder I don't use it anymore. To much hassel to get the angles aligned.

My experience is the exact opposite to Daniel's.

I have both sharpening systems and I prefer the dual angle fixture. I find for sheer versatility being able to raise, lower or alter the angles (on any graver or other tools I stick in there) to whatever is necessary for the job to be a real bonus. Especially if you are working on the fly and not exactly sure of what the metal is that your cutting. As far as the time goes for sharpening I didn’t notice any difference between the two systems. At the end of the day it’s only a quick face grind (if necessary) and a flick on the heels (or heel). Accuracey isn't an issue either as once calibrated the dual angle fixture is as accurate as you can get. Even if you are in a hurry and it's a degree or two out won't alter the accuracey of your cutting or the sharpness of the graver.

The Lindsay templates are excellent for doing the Lindsay patented grind.

The big thing about the Lindsay grind is not its parallel heel as you can do this to any graver. It is the relief grind behind the heel that makes it so efficient. If you alter the face angle then you have to alter the relief angles as well. It will still cut fine if you don’t, but you lose the efficiency of the math behind the angles.

This is what I’m getting at for people that are beginning engraving and Tim has said. Learn about your gravers and develop an understanding of their geometry, strengths and weaknesses and how they cut the metal and more importantly……knowing how to alter them to suit the surface you are working on.

The one thing I’m very keen to learn is hand sharpening. Something that I can see some real benefit in learning for certain types of gravers and certain types of work…..however it’s a lot trickier than it looks. I have a few gouges in a practice plate to prove the point.

Cheers
Andrew

Ah Andrew, can't be the exact oposite or I am doing something very wrong

I know that you can achieve every point with the dual axal grinding fixture but to get every axal right takes some experience. I would rather change my facetting rigg to take on gravers then to lose my templates.
I agree that with the proper knowledge you can do everything with the dual axal grinding fixture but I can't get every angle right everytime.
I also agree that grinding gravers by hand is a precious thing to be able to do! And whenn not using my airgraver I still do.
Engraving with my template sharpened gravers does give me a quick and sure engraving.
I do adjust the heel though. So I can hold my graver a bit steeper.

Ah......but Daniel......you forget.

I'm standing here at the bottom of the world doing everything upside down!!

Cheers
Andrew

I just love your oposite opinion
Might just be the top of the world though!!!
Think it is right now

The suggestions for sharpening tools for the beginner are very limited to the tools easiest function. ( flat plates etc.) although they will succeed in many other situations. The purpose is to get people to cutting right away with the greatest success. If they didn't do that, you would get very frustrated and probably quit before you got started.

Once you have the basics and come into contact with other requirements, you must learn how to adapt the tool to those requirements as Tim said.

This requires knowing tool geometry and why it works for any particular situation. Once you understand that, you can make your own tools with confidence for the job you have to do.

That only comes with knowledge and experience.

Ron S

One feature I find extremely valuable in the tool post type sharpening fixtures like the Dual Angle, is the ability to rock the fixture on the tool post to produce a radius heel. Many of my gravers have radius heels, and I can produce them quickly and accurately this way.

If you have someone showing you how to do it the Dual Angle is, I think, better because of the flexibility. But that same flexibility can make it hard to figure out by yourself.

The Lindsay template based system is, again in my humble opinion, the best choice for someone just starting out because it's hard to mess up. But as Andrew noted, it's much harder to make any adjustments.

I've got the Lindsay system in my Box O' Happiness portable system and the Dual Angle + PowerHone on my bench.

Very cool, Steve. Where do you engrave with your portable setup?

Andrew, regarding the 'relief grind', it is in fact a 'reshaping' grind. The primary grind reshapes the graver to accept a parallel heel. It's a simple concept that's been around a long time but in the past we had to eyeball everything as there wasn't a dual angle fixture to make life easy.

So, (for the novices reading this) for example if you want a 120º heel you first reshape the graver by about 5º less than you want the actual heel to be (in this case a primary grind of 25º at about 2º lift which reshapes the graver to 130º) then you'd heel it at 30º with 15º of lift giving you your 120º graver. Simple but effective.