Wages
- Thread starter Rosso
- Start date
KCSteve
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Calculating is easy - just take the amount you got paid and divide by the number of hours it took (don't forget your design time).
Now if you want to get a particular wage, that's a bit trickier. Then you have to have some idea of how long it takes you do a particular type of engraving, how much of what sort(s) of engraving you'll be doing, what kind of secondary 'stuff' you'll have to deal with (disassembly, re-assembly, finishing, etc.) - all kinds of things that I'm hoping the experienced guys will pop in with again.
Some of the considerations are the same for any kind of engraving, some are specific to guns, but this should be another good thread!
Now if you want to get a particular wage, that's a bit trickier. Then you have to have some idea of how long it takes you do a particular type of engraving, how much of what sort(s) of engraving you'll be doing, what kind of secondary 'stuff' you'll have to deal with (disassembly, re-assembly, finishing, etc.) - all kinds of things that I'm hoping the experienced guys will pop in with again.
Some of the considerations are the same for any kind of engraving, some are specific to guns, but this should be another good thread!
That will come with a little more experience and knowing how long it will take you to do a certain thing. Each phase requires different times. Lettering, different styles of lettering, initial jobs, inlaying, scrolls, all have their own requirements. So It would be good for you to time any of these things, and that will give you some incilnation of the time it takes to do the job. It is becoming familliar with the speed in which you can do things, but this will be increasing as you go along and gain experience.
There is no set down rules or prices as everyone works at their own speed and quoting a price is one of the hardest things an engraver has to learn. It is like how long will it take you to make a car? How would you ever know that? Every engraving job is sort an experiment in time because you are creating from scratch with unknown perimeters.
You therefore take the thing you are having the most luck with as far as the bulk of your work, i.e. lettering or whatever it is and find out a general time it takes you to do it. Of course custom ornamental engraving is a crap shoot. You just have to have the experience which you will probably have to learn by trial and error.
Once you can cut about anything you can draw or get requested to do, you will be able to better judge the time it takes to do it, but it will never be easy setting a price except on repetetive things that you do all of the time. It is not like the mass production style of business where you make the product and then put a price on it according to the tooling up time, equipment to create it, and know all of these things prior to putting it on the market. You are generally doing a one of a kind piece and don't exactly know how long it will take until you get through. The problem is that everyone wants to know before you do the job. That is, and always will be the delima.
Experience is the only answer and the insight to know if you will be running your customers off with the price you quote, or drawing them in. Reputation plays a role in this approach for without it, you are simply another tradesman, generally working with the general public who are absolutely ignorant of what it takes for you to do what you do. You will take lots of hits getting there however, in any level of engraving. That never changes, it just gets better with time.
Everyone one of us has had to develope some system of pricing. You will have to work on that too, and no one can tell you. If you charge to much in a certain climate of people, you will run them off. If you charge too little, you will draw them in and work your butt off trying to make some money, so where you show your work has a lot to do with how much you make, but you had better be sure that the work is equal to the client. If you have stupid people, your work doesn't have to rise to perfection, but if you are in the conneseur class of people, it had better be good. They will know the difference. The general public is pretty forgiving and are satisfied with about anything, but this is not really the art class of work anyway.
I'm sure this didn't help much........HaHaHa...........but this is the business of engraving. Just about anything an ameteur can do, I can do it faster and cheaper and make more money at it because my experience carries me. If you had to compete with me, you would be too slow, too expensive, and I would get all of the customers. That is the point. There was five engravers in my town when I started and competition was fierce. You guys count your blessings..................HaHaha. The general, diverse, engraving trade for one who is versitile, is pretty much wide open these days where a guy can make some money if they go about it right.
And that is my two cents on the subject..........................pricing is never easy because your enthusiasm keeps getting in the way if you know what I mean.
Forward!
Ron S
There is no set down rules or prices as everyone works at their own speed and quoting a price is one of the hardest things an engraver has to learn. It is like how long will it take you to make a car? How would you ever know that? Every engraving job is sort an experiment in time because you are creating from scratch with unknown perimeters.
You therefore take the thing you are having the most luck with as far as the bulk of your work, i.e. lettering or whatever it is and find out a general time it takes you to do it. Of course custom ornamental engraving is a crap shoot. You just have to have the experience which you will probably have to learn by trial and error.
Once you can cut about anything you can draw or get requested to do, you will be able to better judge the time it takes to do it, but it will never be easy setting a price except on repetetive things that you do all of the time. It is not like the mass production style of business where you make the product and then put a price on it according to the tooling up time, equipment to create it, and know all of these things prior to putting it on the market. You are generally doing a one of a kind piece and don't exactly know how long it will take until you get through. The problem is that everyone wants to know before you do the job. That is, and always will be the delima.
Experience is the only answer and the insight to know if you will be running your customers off with the price you quote, or drawing them in. Reputation plays a role in this approach for without it, you are simply another tradesman, generally working with the general public who are absolutely ignorant of what it takes for you to do what you do. You will take lots of hits getting there however, in any level of engraving. That never changes, it just gets better with time.
Everyone one of us has had to develope some system of pricing. You will have to work on that too, and no one can tell you. If you charge to much in a certain climate of people, you will run them off. If you charge too little, you will draw them in and work your butt off trying to make some money, so where you show your work has a lot to do with how much you make, but you had better be sure that the work is equal to the client. If you have stupid people, your work doesn't have to rise to perfection, but if you are in the conneseur class of people, it had better be good. They will know the difference. The general public is pretty forgiving and are satisfied with about anything, but this is not really the art class of work anyway.
I'm sure this didn't help much........HaHaHa...........but this is the business of engraving. Just about anything an ameteur can do, I can do it faster and cheaper and make more money at it because my experience carries me. If you had to compete with me, you would be too slow, too expensive, and I would get all of the customers. That is the point. There was five engravers in my town when I started and competition was fierce. You guys count your blessings..................HaHaha. The general, diverse, engraving trade for one who is versitile, is pretty much wide open these days where a guy can make some money if they go about it right.
And that is my two cents on the subject..........................pricing is never easy because your enthusiasm keeps getting in the way if you know what I mean.
Forward!
Ron S
Last edited:
carl bleile
Elite Cafe Member
It seems like the usual question for someone new to engraving, but if your just starting out expect to be broke for a long time (don't give up your day job) and work you butt off getting as good as you can get and even then when ALL is totaled up you might make more with a standard job. there is a lot more to being an engraver than cutting lines!
It would be helpfull if you put something in your profile so we might know what you do and what your interests are.
It would be helpfull if you put something in your profile so we might know what you do and what your interests are.
markpreston
Member
I'm not an engraver...yet, but I do make scrimshawed powderhorns and some other things from time to time. I charge $10/hr (I know, I work cheap.) But when you figure that a carved powderhorn with full coverage scrimshaw might take over 100 hours to complete, the pool of potential clients starts getting shallow. Even at that I have a 18 month waiting list right now....mostly cause I'm slow.
I haven't quit my day job. Scrimshaw is my passion. It's the one thing in my life that I can't wait to do again. Once I sell a couple more horns, I'm going to buy the equipment and try doing some engraving.
I haven't quit my day job. Scrimshaw is my passion. It's the one thing in my life that I can't wait to do again. Once I sell a couple more horns, I'm going to buy the equipment and try doing some engraving.
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Quote From Andrew Biggs "Here's a link to an article about pricing your work that may be helpful http://www.awardsigns.co.nz/fega.htm"
Also would suggest doing search of this sight, Lindsey's site, and Knifenetwork/engraving on the subject of pricing-great stuff on all three
Fred
Also would suggest doing search of this sight, Lindsey's site, and Knifenetwork/engraving on the subject of pricing-great stuff on all three
Fred
diandwill
Elite Cafe Member
This was a pricing list posted earlier by James Roettger. It doesn't cover firearms, but does provide a general guideline to other engraved items.
Will
James Roettger Hand Engraving
www.jamesroettger.com
List of Engraving Prices for Common Items 2007
Very high value items such as fine watches are extra.
We reserve the right to requote (upon receiving an item)
any estimates given on unseen items such as phone or email quotes.
In most cases punctuation is not charged for.
We can do foreign letters and charactors as provided by client.
SIZE ALWAYS AFFECTS COST, bigger and super tiny, as well as
VERY TIGHTLY SPACED and FANCY LAYOUTS are extra.
On larger silver & holloware items add a $10 to $20.00 repolishing charge.
Please call for estimates or to reconfirm prices.
INSIDE RING
Metal: Silver Gold White Gold and Platinum
Looped Script per letter costs;
Capitols: $5.00 $6.00 $7.00
Lower case $4.00 $5.00 $6.00
Roman Block per letter;
Capitols: $6.00 $7.00 $8.00
Lower case $5.00 $6.00 $7.00
Rings 10mm and wider are an extra $1.00 or more per letter.
PENDANT BACKS script or Roman block
Gold $5.00 for each capitol, $4.00 for each lowercase letter.
Silver $4.00 per capitol, $3.00 per lowercase each letter
Platinum $6.00 per capitol and $5.00 per lower case each letter
ROMAN BLOCK ON THE OUTSIDE OF A DIE STRUCK WEDDING BAND:
6 mm band with 4 mm tall capitols $16.00 each; lowercase $12.00 each.
Band width may affect cost, please inquire for other sizes.
Hebrew or Arabic on the outside of a 6mm ring is $16.00 per letter.
CUFF LINKS matched letters 12 to 15 mm tall $60.00 per letter
Page 2
PENDANT OR LOCKET 3 letter interlocked script monogram 18 mm tall area
with:
13mm tall middle letter 3 letter group $40.00 per letter
9mm tall middle letter 3 letter group $30.00 per letter
Add surrounding looped & spiral filler embelishments $20.00 to $50.00
6mm tall old English letter each $50.00
10mm tall old English each $90.00
SIGNET RINGS block or script: depending on size of signet from small to large
$30.00 to $60.00 per letter.
Ladies 3 letter script monogram with flourishes $60.00 per letter.
Old English single letter 10mm tall $100.00
Gent’s 18mm signet raised block letter relief $180 to $240.00
COATS OF ARMS on a 18mm wide signet ring. Very detailed $500.00
STERLING FLATWARE: Script capitols, matched initials $25.00 per letter.
BABY CUPS:
Three letter script monogram 15mm tall center letter, $50.00 per letter
Dates 6 to 8 mm tall with broad and narrow cut single line $15.00 per letter.
Block letter names: 8mm to10 mm tall slant shaded fill $20.00 per letter.
BABY RATTLES: One large letter $45.00; Two or three letters $30.00 each
CHRISTMAS BELLS: 6mm tall script $10.00 capitols and $8.00 lowercase
each.
TROPHIES: wriggled or liner graved gothic block. $6.00 per letter 4mm to 6mm tall..
COPY A SIGNATURE actual size on a flat surface $45.00, second signature
on same piece $35.00
I.D. BRACELETS:
Sterling 12mm wide plate $12.00 per capitol, $9.00 per
lower case.
12mm wide Gold plate $16.00 per capitol and $12.00 per lower case.
Page 3
PRESENTATION TRAYS, TROPHIES, PICTURE FRAMES, larger decorative fonts
ADD $20.00 REPOLISH CHARGE TO ALL LARGE ITEMS
Roman block with slant shade filled letter: 8mm $ 20.00 ; 10 mm tall $24.00 :
12mm tall $ 28.00
Roman block with slant shade fill, wide bevel leading edge with drop shadow:
18mm tall $90.00 each
24mm tall $120.00 each
3†tall $300.00 each
Georgian Roman block, fancy and decorative
12 mm tall $50.00 each
18mm tall $75.00
24mm tall $125.00
PATTERNING A FINISHED RING with hand engraving: Three stone ladies
solitaire 2.5mm to 3.5mm wide.
full coverage $240.00
3/4 coverage on same $180.00.
Engraving patterning around a 6mm band adding millgrain. $180 to $200.00
STONE SETTING: Bright cutting and pave available .01ct to .05 carat $5.00 to
$10.00 per stone depending on quantity and location. Larger sizes extra.
Setting a Stone into the middle of an engraving layout like a letter starts at $20.00
Contact Information
James Roettger
J. Roettger Jewelers, 15 South 5th St, Suite 290 Minneapolis, MN 55402
Ph. 612-340-0018 Email: james@jamesroettger.com
Visit us on the web at:
www.jamesroettger.com
Will
James Roettger Hand Engraving
www.jamesroettger.com
List of Engraving Prices for Common Items 2007
Very high value items such as fine watches are extra.
We reserve the right to requote (upon receiving an item)
any estimates given on unseen items such as phone or email quotes.
In most cases punctuation is not charged for.
We can do foreign letters and charactors as provided by client.
SIZE ALWAYS AFFECTS COST, bigger and super tiny, as well as
VERY TIGHTLY SPACED and FANCY LAYOUTS are extra.
On larger silver & holloware items add a $10 to $20.00 repolishing charge.
Please call for estimates or to reconfirm prices.
INSIDE RING
Metal: Silver Gold White Gold and Platinum
Looped Script per letter costs;
Capitols: $5.00 $6.00 $7.00
Lower case $4.00 $5.00 $6.00
Roman Block per letter;
Capitols: $6.00 $7.00 $8.00
Lower case $5.00 $6.00 $7.00
Rings 10mm and wider are an extra $1.00 or more per letter.
PENDANT BACKS script or Roman block
Gold $5.00 for each capitol, $4.00 for each lowercase letter.
Silver $4.00 per capitol, $3.00 per lowercase each letter
Platinum $6.00 per capitol and $5.00 per lower case each letter
ROMAN BLOCK ON THE OUTSIDE OF A DIE STRUCK WEDDING BAND:
6 mm band with 4 mm tall capitols $16.00 each; lowercase $12.00 each.
Band width may affect cost, please inquire for other sizes.
Hebrew or Arabic on the outside of a 6mm ring is $16.00 per letter.
CUFF LINKS matched letters 12 to 15 mm tall $60.00 per letter
Page 2
PENDANT OR LOCKET 3 letter interlocked script monogram 18 mm tall area
with:
13mm tall middle letter 3 letter group $40.00 per letter
9mm tall middle letter 3 letter group $30.00 per letter
Add surrounding looped & spiral filler embelishments $20.00 to $50.00
6mm tall old English letter each $50.00
10mm tall old English each $90.00
SIGNET RINGS block or script: depending on size of signet from small to large
$30.00 to $60.00 per letter.
Ladies 3 letter script monogram with flourishes $60.00 per letter.
Old English single letter 10mm tall $100.00
Gent’s 18mm signet raised block letter relief $180 to $240.00
COATS OF ARMS on a 18mm wide signet ring. Very detailed $500.00
STERLING FLATWARE: Script capitols, matched initials $25.00 per letter.
BABY CUPS:
Three letter script monogram 15mm tall center letter, $50.00 per letter
Dates 6 to 8 mm tall with broad and narrow cut single line $15.00 per letter.
Block letter names: 8mm to10 mm tall slant shaded fill $20.00 per letter.
BABY RATTLES: One large letter $45.00; Two or three letters $30.00 each
CHRISTMAS BELLS: 6mm tall script $10.00 capitols and $8.00 lowercase
each.
TROPHIES: wriggled or liner graved gothic block. $6.00 per letter 4mm to 6mm tall..
COPY A SIGNATURE actual size on a flat surface $45.00, second signature
on same piece $35.00
I.D. BRACELETS:
Sterling 12mm wide plate $12.00 per capitol, $9.00 per
lower case.
12mm wide Gold plate $16.00 per capitol and $12.00 per lower case.
Page 3
PRESENTATION TRAYS, TROPHIES, PICTURE FRAMES, larger decorative fonts
ADD $20.00 REPOLISH CHARGE TO ALL LARGE ITEMS
Roman block with slant shade filled letter: 8mm $ 20.00 ; 10 mm tall $24.00 :
12mm tall $ 28.00
Roman block with slant shade fill, wide bevel leading edge with drop shadow:
18mm tall $90.00 each
24mm tall $120.00 each
3†tall $300.00 each
Georgian Roman block, fancy and decorative
12 mm tall $50.00 each
18mm tall $75.00
24mm tall $125.00
PATTERNING A FINISHED RING with hand engraving: Three stone ladies
solitaire 2.5mm to 3.5mm wide.
full coverage $240.00
3/4 coverage on same $180.00.
Engraving patterning around a 6mm band adding millgrain. $180 to $200.00
STONE SETTING: Bright cutting and pave available .01ct to .05 carat $5.00 to
$10.00 per stone depending on quantity and location. Larger sizes extra.
Setting a Stone into the middle of an engraving layout like a letter starts at $20.00
Contact Information
James Roettger
J. Roettger Jewelers, 15 South 5th St, Suite 290 Minneapolis, MN 55402
Ph. 612-340-0018 Email: james@jamesroettger.com
Visit us on the web at:
www.jamesroettger.com
BrianPowley
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
Here's a very important piece of advice I gleaned from my friend Barry Lee Hands:
If you're not cutting metal, you're not making money.
The business of engraving involves drawing, sharpening, phone calls, emails, fixture making, sanding,polishing, disassembling,yada,yada,yada.
If you really want to know how long it takes to engrave something, get a stop watch and time your actual engraving. Stop the clock when the phone rings, when you get a coffee, check your email, do lunch,etc.,etc., and you'll be amazed at how much time you aren't engraving.
I've tailored my engraving prices based not on "how much should I charge", but rather how much do I need to make to cover expenses and make a profit.(Keep in mind that this is my full time job)
In a nut shell:
Let's say my total monthly expenses are $3500.00 (mortgage-electric-phone,etc.,etc.)
Divide that by the number of days I work per month.(on average it's about 22 days)
$3500.00 divided by 22 = $160.00 per day. That is the "break even point". Any less money per day is losing ground and you won't stay in business very long.
I usually work about 10 hours a day, so my numbers have me earning $16.00 per hour.
Divide $16.00 per hour by 60 minutes= $.27 per minute of actual cutting.
This is only the break even point. I need to charge more than that to make a profit.
But here's the reality:
Although I work 10 hours per day, I never actually "cut" for 10 solid hours.
There's the drawing, sharpening, sanding,etc.,etc.----and remember= If you ain't cuttin' metal, you ain't making money.
So let's triple our price $.80 per minute. That should cover the sanding,drawing,polishing,etc.,etc.
Now, for every minute you are cutting metal (hit the stop watch), you are charging $.80
If you are tough enough to cut for 10 solid hours, you've made $480.00 and you will have impressed the heck out of me.
But let's say your actual engraving time is 185 minutes---that's a little over 3 hours---and that is $148.00!
I think you'll love the $148.00, but you'll be surprised that the entire job took almost all day to accomplish.
I've found that there's no real way to tell how long a custom job is going to take unless I time the entire cutting process. I also document the actual time on an index card. I tell my customers that my quotes are just "rough guesses" and the real price comes at the end of the cutting process.
Sometimes, the actual price is less than my quotes. That sure makes the customer happy and usually makes them a repeat customer also.(not to mention the word of mouth advertising they'll gladly provide)
So how does my customer know that I'm not "padding" the time sheet? My reputation.
The stop watch has made me profitable, and until I figure something better, it's what I'll stick with.
If you're not cutting metal, you're not making money.
The business of engraving involves drawing, sharpening, phone calls, emails, fixture making, sanding,polishing, disassembling,yada,yada,yada.
If you really want to know how long it takes to engrave something, get a stop watch and time your actual engraving. Stop the clock when the phone rings, when you get a coffee, check your email, do lunch,etc.,etc., and you'll be amazed at how much time you aren't engraving.
I've tailored my engraving prices based not on "how much should I charge", but rather how much do I need to make to cover expenses and make a profit.(Keep in mind that this is my full time job)
In a nut shell:
Let's say my total monthly expenses are $3500.00 (mortgage-electric-phone,etc.,etc.)
Divide that by the number of days I work per month.(on average it's about 22 days)
$3500.00 divided by 22 = $160.00 per day. That is the "break even point". Any less money per day is losing ground and you won't stay in business very long.
I usually work about 10 hours a day, so my numbers have me earning $16.00 per hour.
Divide $16.00 per hour by 60 minutes= $.27 per minute of actual cutting.
This is only the break even point. I need to charge more than that to make a profit.
But here's the reality:
Although I work 10 hours per day, I never actually "cut" for 10 solid hours.
There's the drawing, sharpening, sanding,etc.,etc.----and remember= If you ain't cuttin' metal, you ain't making money.
So let's triple our price $.80 per minute. That should cover the sanding,drawing,polishing,etc.,etc.
Now, for every minute you are cutting metal (hit the stop watch), you are charging $.80
If you are tough enough to cut for 10 solid hours, you've made $480.00 and you will have impressed the heck out of me.
But let's say your actual engraving time is 185 minutes---that's a little over 3 hours---and that is $148.00!
I think you'll love the $148.00, but you'll be surprised that the entire job took almost all day to accomplish.
I've found that there's no real way to tell how long a custom job is going to take unless I time the entire cutting process. I also document the actual time on an index card. I tell my customers that my quotes are just "rough guesses" and the real price comes at the end of the cutting process.
Sometimes, the actual price is less than my quotes. That sure makes the customer happy and usually makes them a repeat customer also.(not to mention the word of mouth advertising they'll gladly provide)
So how does my customer know that I'm not "padding" the time sheet? My reputation.
The stop watch has made me profitable, and until I figure something better, it's what I'll stick with.
pilkguns
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
very well said Brian!
Bobby Branton
Member
I've heard of craftsmen using an old time clock to keep track of particular jobs. Punch in when you start and punch out when you stop.
Marrinan
~ Elite 1000 Member ~
time card is what i use but I'm way slower than others and I dont have the reputation either so I adjust and adjust and hope my time gets better-I also followed Ray Cover's advice and I cut a square inch of the style and adjust some more-fred
PAUL LANTUCH
Elite Cafe Member
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2008
- Messages
- 208
Totally agree with Brian.
I'm spending almost the same time at the bench EWERY day, rare free weekends.
You have to include to the cost a future expenses for the hemmoroy treatment, glasses upgrading and more surprises as result of practicing the noble art of engraving.
Any way, a New Era coming and we will remember our long working hours and sufferings of today with deep nostalgia.
I'm looking for the books how to learn even more noble art of plumbing.
I'm spending almost the same time at the bench EWERY day, rare free weekends.
You have to include to the cost a future expenses for the hemmoroy treatment, glasses upgrading and more surprises as result of practicing the noble art of engraving.
Any way, a New Era coming and we will remember our long working hours and sufferings of today with deep nostalgia.
I'm looking for the books how to learn even more noble art of plumbing.
Per Ken Hurst, I use a stop watch and hit it to record time every time I work on a piece, whether it is drawing, transferring the pattern, preparing the piece or actually engraving. That gives me a total time on that particular piece and I charge by that time. I usually give a quote based on my perception of time for a piece and the clock keeps me in tune to what has actually transcribed. If my time (based on my charge per hour) is less than the quote, a reduction in fee is required, if it is more than quoted, I eat the excess. This will hone you estimation skills and help you learn just what you can do. In no way should you rush a job because you think you may lose money. Remember, what you are doing will be around a lot longer than you are and will tell a story every time it is viewed. We must all get away from the "nine-to-five" work ethic mentality and give the customer the best we can at the time, always striving to be better.
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