John Barraclough's very clever gravers

John B. · Jan 17, 2007

Hello J.C.
First let me say that I admire your great engraving skill and appreciate you taking your valuable time to respond to Sam's graver thread.
These gravers are for people who would like to start with a nice small tool with repeatable angles, a minimum of grinding and a low cost in both time and materials.
Yesterday I made 24 of them to take to Reno with me.
Total time was 2 hours.
Total cost for all materials, cobalt drills, tube, soldier and flux was almost exactly $24.00,
or about $1.00 each.
I'm sure that most people can't grind four or even two flats on 24 pieces of round stock in 2 hours
and wind up with a good, small cobalt graver with repeatable angles for $1.00.
Grinding flats on 1/16 inch round stock and keeping it cool is quite a chore anyway.
Exact repeatable angles are not something a person of your skill has to have.
You have enough experience to make your hand quickly adjust to suit the angle of attack.
But for many others, my experience and that of other teachers, is that repeatable angles encourage more practice with less stress.
Maybe we can agree to disagree on this one.
Take care, best wishes. John B.

John B. · Jan 17, 2007

Hey, J.C.
We both had our say and it's over.
No harm, no foul.
And nobody died in the wreck!
Take care, John B.

Sandy · Jan 17, 2007

Today I went to my "favorite" store (local hardware store). got a micro torch, 1/16" cobalt drill and the 3/32 square brass. Went back to my office at my bread and butter job and put one together in about 5 minutes. It took that long "cause" my boss came in. He is an understanding guy. When I got home right to the shop and the sharpener. Works great. Thanks Mr. John for the great idea.

Mike Cirelli · Jan 17, 2007

I have a slight dilemma. I purchased one of the preground 120 graver from GRS. When I go to put a full length heel on it I have to set one side to 37.5 and the other to 32.5 in order for the heels to be symmetrical. Every time I sharpen it, it's the same. I re-calibrated the fixture and still the same. The only thing I can come up with is that it's just not square in the holder. I wouldn't think the graver would be off but I guess it could.
Mike

Sam · Jan 18, 2007

Mike: The GRS pre-ground 120's are difficult to square-up in the sharpening fixture because the top of the graver is flat and the top jaw in the fixture is a V. I prefer to make my 120's from square blanks for that reason. / ~Sam

Mike Cirelli · Jan 18, 2007

Sam I do too but I thought I'd give a pre-grind a try. What I didn't get is that it's the same evrytime even when removed and replaced. Maybe it just happened that I stuck it in the same everytime.
Thanks
Mike

Jon C. Dake · Jan 18, 2007

John: This is a great idea and I now have several of these clever little gravers and need to order some more of those drill bits. I use a Lindsay engraving tool which takes 3/32" gravers so rather than buying the 1/8" brass square tube I bought the 3/32" brass square tube at the hobby shop and the 1/16" sawed off drill bits that I ordered are a perfect fit. It takes all of about 2 minutes to make one of these, not counting grinding the point. Thanks for this great tip.

Sam · Jan 18, 2007

John B. is my hero.

John B. · Jan 18, 2007

Jon D.
The 3/32 inch square is what I use to fit all the 1/16 burs or drill cut offs.
I think that is the size and the number of the tube from Micro-Mark or K&S that I put inthe first post about this type of graver.
It is the 3/32 inch size that is a pretty easy fit in most any handpiece, the changeable push gravers or even the chisel handles that have a 1/18 inch hole with a set screw
I believe Sam moved the original post over to one of the Stickys, but I may be wrong.
Anyway, glad you are making them and have found them useful. Thanks for the comment.
See you in Reno, Jon.

Sam, when it comes to heros.......... you 'da man to so many!
Again, thanks for a great place to visit. John B.

Ray Cover · Jan 18, 2007

Just to add a piece fo info. MSC has impact resistant 1/16" x 12" carbide blanks for $12 and change. They also have a few other grades on the same page.

Ray

rod · Jan 19, 2007

John,

I appreciate the thread you started on the brass shanked gravers! Steve Lindsay let me know that Enco Tools stock carbide round drill blanks for very little money. they are about $2 for 2.5 inches length, and you can by them i/16 " and smaller. I have been making the same set up as yours but using the carbide inserts and no soldering. Cut the square 3/32 brass tube. Take a carbide 1/16 round blank and notch it using the outside edge of a 5 or 6 inch diamond lap wheel, then snap a short length off, say 3/4 inch. Take a piece of 1/16 ordinary steel or brass wire, like brazing or welding rod, or even drill rod. Stick this in one end of the square brass tube and your carbide into the other leaving about 3/8 protruding. Make sure the 1/16 carbibe and 1/16 soft brass or steel are touching inside the square brass, then add some superglue. Snip off the excess soft 1/16 flush with the end of the square brass and you have a nice engraver ready for sharpening in a very few moments. I also use the next size down from 1/16 carbide... 3/64. Result is pretty well indentical to yours, John, except that it is a carbide tip and only needs a short carbide.

Changing the subject slightly, I find merit in Steve Lindsay's "back relieved" grind that he describes on his web. For me it does seem to allow a tighter turn without heel drag. Let me hasten to add that I see many fine examples of tight turns made by skilled engravers who use "standard" shapes, so I do not rule out that it might be my poor skills at toolpoint that are holding me back. That said, I have been making some 'cranked end' gravers from the above carbide blanks which I solder into steel shanks at about 10 degrees off axis. These then allow Steve's 'back relieved' geometry to be ground with a minimum of metal removal. I will post a picture of two soon to iilustrate. By the way, in grinding the back relieve, it works best to have, say, a GRS fixture standing down at the base of the lapping unit. The photos will show this.

best wishes!

Rod

Jim-Iowa · Jan 20, 2007

Uh Oh! I really messed that Up!

Tried soldering one of these together with my propane torch. The drill Bit got way too hot in a heartbeat.
Are you guys using an Iron or microtorch to solder these?

Tim Wells · Jan 20, 2007

I plan to make some of these soon just to say I did it since I keep cobalt bits and that hobby brass stock around all the time.

Jim, I'd put the bit in the vice jaws to act as a heat sink and the brass out of the jaws. Some aluminum cleats (jaw liners) will help here if available. A pencil butane torch will also help. I silver soldered a lug the size of a half a BB on my mother-in-law's watch to re-attach her band with one of those little butane torches and you couldn't see the repair. (that's why I'm her hero; that and I keep her daughter happy) They are cheap and handy little tools; the vice should keep it cool enough.

If I'm not mistaken, the temper won't be hurt on cobalt or carbide if it gets hot as long as it is allowed to air cool. Some of you metallurgist/engraver hybrids chime in on this and correct me if need be so we'll all know for sure.

rod · Jan 20, 2007

cranked end engravers

John,

Please read this as a continuation of my last post...

I trust that I have got a few small photos of the carbide 'cranked end' engravers showing up in this post? I am still a bit new to attachment procedures. For those not used to working with carbide, having a melting point up around 3000C, it is just fine to silver solder these tool bits without drawing their hardness, as you would perhaps do with other hard steels. However remember that super glue will work fine for the square brass shanks, and you will not run the risk of heat drawing the temper of these other tool steels. At just a few cents for the carbide rounds, you will get three per 2 inch blank!

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=325-2383&PMPXNO=5809256

Let me say again that I have read that others use carbide inserts with the square brass, it is not my idea.

But I have not heard of others making up the cranked carbide gravers in my pictures, perhaps others do? In this case you must silver solder them into the plain steel shaft, as they go into just a short hole drilled in at an angle and about 1/4 inch deep. You may then sharpen as a standard Vee shape, or simply put a 45 degree face on them, then polish the edge with a buff having diamond paste. This will ruin the cutting edge, but create a lovely mirror heel. Overdo the heel size, and once complete, then go back to the power hone to redo the 45 front face. This restores the cutting edge, but stop before you grind off the mirror-finish heel! With a bright round heel, and a very steep clearance at the back end, you can get into small areas without doing damage to a nice outline cut, or even go over and redo some outlines for a bright effect.

best

Rod

John B. · Jan 20, 2007

Hi Rod.
Thank you for the pictures and the text.
I may be misunderstanding you.
But I believe I have done the same thing by bending the end of the tube where the graver is inserted.
Some I have bent up and some down to get into tough places.
Maybe I am not catching what you are doing?
Bye the way, Andrew is here and says Hi.
We leave for Reno on Monday.
Hope you enjoy your trip too.
John B.

rod · Jan 21, 2007

Hello John and Andrew!

What you say here produces exactly what I was trying, only your bending of the brass is easier, therefore better! Thanks, John.

Glad you are safely arrived, Andrew!

I have four flutes to finish off and post around the world, so I am jamming to do this before flying to New Zealand on 29th, but very much yearning to get to Reno if I can get things into the mail in time. My buddy here has a light plane and is a great pilot, he is facinated to see the engravers show and we may fly over the Sierra to Reno, but only if the weather is good. It is about two hours from Mendocino due east.

best

Rod

mdengraver · Sep 14, 2007

Solder

What kind of solder is recommended used to make these gravers?

John B. · Sep 14, 2007

mdengraver said:
What kind of solder is recommended used to make these gravers?

Hi mdengraver.
I use StayBrite solder.
Best regards, John B.

joe seeley · Sep 14, 2007

1/16 carbide stock is available from msc and also J&L in 12" lengths

mdengraver · Sep 15, 2007

Thanks for the info.

John Barraclough's very clever gravers

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