very newbee

kcstott · Sep 20, 2008

Hi all
New to engraving although it has always fascinated me. I finally ponyed up and bought some tools. I'm a machinist tool and die maker by trade so the geo for gravers is not to hard to reproduce. But I'm having trouble with heel drag on scroll work. Tools I'm using are from Brownell's and they are the James B Meek starter set. I've been trying the point graver (onglette) with little success I've sharpened it to the dimensions outlined in his book but it just seams like something is not right. I've tried changing my angle of attack but that only results in a deeper cut. What are some good basic angles to hold the tool to perform push engraving? and how deep should the first cut be? How thick and wide of a curl (chip) should i expect to see in something that would vaguely resemble english scroll work?
Oh and I'm using Brownell's practice plates as well. trying to stack everything in my favor on this one.
Thanks Kerry

John B. · Sep 20, 2008

Hi, where in S.Cal are you?
I'm in the greater LA area if I can help.
Maybe send me a PM.

Best, John B.

KSnyder · Sep 21, 2008

Just mho but the onglette is hard to sharpen, correctly and has a fairly weak tip.
Start with a 90 deg. (square) w/ 45 face & 15 heel it will be more forgiving either push or hammer work.
Kent

kcstott · Sep 21, 2008

KSnyder said:
Just mho but the onglette is hard to sharpen, correctly and has a fairly weak tip.
Start with a 90 deg. (square) w/ 45 face & 15 heel it will be more forgiving either push or hammer work.
Kent

That's an understatement.

I've only run into a few tool geometry's that were this hard to get correct and still I'm not sure if it's right. I'm used to working with something I can measure. You know a detailed drawings. I'm sharpening up a square graver today and will give it a shot
Thanks for the tip though
Kerry

Ron Smith · Sep 21, 2008

Kerry,
Most of the time preople cut too deep, and the facets described in any publication are hard to relate to the actual size. Tool geometry is critical and you can get the right angles, but the deminsions or size of those angles are critical too. The facet angles you are creating according to Meek's examples are okay. It is the size of them that is hard to understand. They are tiny in comparison to the drawings.

Your cuts should not be deeper than the length of heel, therefore for english scroll if your heel is more than about 1 1/2 millimeters you will have trouble with drag and burring the edge of the cut, and you are probably cutting too deep. Also, the width of the point will make a difference. A 90 degree tool will not turn as readily and clean as a 120 degree.

Sharpening lath tools is no where like gravers. A 50 degree face or rake and a 15 to 20 degree lift will usually get you started and then you will have to adjust it to your own personal dynamics. Don't cut in depth any deeper than the length of the belly facets or lift geometry.

The tighter the turn (in your scroll work) the more likely the drag and tearing of the edge of the cut. This takes finness and much practice and critically shaped tools. That is one of the reasons that english scroll is difficult to do until you get a lot of experience cutting tiny radii.

I wouldn't start right off trying to do English. You will naturally shrink your ability to control the tools on tiny radii with practice. Also you can lean the tool to the right slightly toward the outside of the cut and this will help slightly, particularly on the leaf cuts.

Hope this helps.
Ron S

kcstott · Sep 21, 2008

Ron Smith said:
Kerry,
Most of the time preople cut too deep, and the facets described in any publication are hard to relate to the actual size. Tool geometry is critical and you can get the right angles, but the deminsions or size of those angles are critical too. The facet angles you are creating according to Meek's examples are okay. It is the size of them that is hard to understand. They are tiny in comparison to the drawings.

Your cuts should not be deeper than the length of heel, therefore for english scroll if your heel is more than about 1 1/2 millimeters you will have trouble with drag and burring the edge of the cut, and you are probably cutting too deep. Also, the width of the point will make a difference. A 90 degree tool will not turn as readily and clean as a 120 degree.

Sharpening lath tools is no where like gravers. A 50 degree face or rake and a 15 to 20 degree lift will usually get you started and then you will have to adjust it to your own personal dynamics. Don't cut in depth any deeper than the length of the belly facets or lift geometry.

The tighter the turn (in your scroll work) the more likely the drag and tearing of the edge of the cut. This takes finness and much practice and critically shaped tools. That is one of the reasons that english scroll is difficult to do until you get a lot of experience cutting tiny radii.

I wouldn't start right off trying to do English. You will naturally shrink your ability to control the tools on tiny radii with practice. Also you can lean the tool to the right slightly toward the outside of the cut and this will help slightly, particularly on the leaf cuts.

Hope this helps.
Ron S

That actually explains a lot. I kinda figured I had a few problems stacking up.
I'll try some larger monograms and borders just to develop a feel for this.
Again thanks
Kerry

kcstott · Sep 21, 2008

Tried the square graver today and what a difference!!! I can actually round a curve with washing the hole thing out. Thanks Kent for that suggestion. Ron I see what you mean about keeping the heal small. Re-sharpened my square graver with a .8mm heal and is seems to be working.
Now i just need practice and time.
Thanks
Kerry

KSnyder · Sep 22, 2008

Kc
glad I could help, I tried the onglette graver when I started, its enough to make a preacher cuss.

Another tip, a little longer heel is helpful for "straight lines", but as Ron stated the smaller / shorter heel helps going around corners also.
I keep a cotton ball in a .50 cal. case lubed with Jergins tool aid & tap magic to use on the graver for harder materials also.
Kent

very newbee

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