Sword engraving

I don't have a lot of experience with this topic, but I do have experience with small knives. Having said that, the tempering of swords is usually done in the forging process I think, which would be the case because of the length of the blade. On a long blade, furnace tempering seems to be next to impossible to me and would require a very big furnace, but maybe not. I mentioned some techniques in another thread that might not be possible with a blade as long as a sword, but not having any experience with swords, I don't know. I just wanted to alert you to these facts.

Maybe someone else could contribute more information on this topic for anyone interested in sword engraving.

Ron S

I built my furnace the chamber is only 5"x5" and 42" long. I use air hardening steel A-2 D-2 440-C ect. It has worked for me. The blades were not engraved.
Lee Ferguson
www.fergusonknives.com

I do a little blacksmithing as a hobby, and can relate a little on this topic. I am not a swordmaker, not bladesmith by far. However, I have been reading forums and books pretty much nonstop over the last two and a half years or so. The forging process is pretty much shaping the blade to what form is required. Some swordmakers actually harden (by quenching in any number of mediums, usually oil heated to a predetermined temperature), and then do the final tempering. Most use specialized forges, usually with a long slender chamber, to bring the blade up to critical temperature. Then the blade is quenched. At this point, the blade is then tempered, either by reheating in the forge to a certain temperature, or using a specialized heat treat oven to hold the blade at a specific temp. for a specified time period. This could be repeated any number of times, depending on the swordsmith. Tempering is merely removing some of the brittleness created by the quench. Then the blade is finished. Some makers finish the blade almost completely, then temper. It is really a matter of preference, according to what I have read.


Dr. Jim Hrisoulas is probably one of the best around, he's authored four books on blademaking, and seems like on of the nicest, most genuine fellows when it comes to answering questions and lending advice over on another forum I belong to. (IForgeIron.com) Dr. Hrisoulas website is www.atar.com

Hope this helps.

Hey Keykeeper,

Just a "hit & run" post to say hello.

Great info.

It was great using that forge of yours the other day too. There's nothing like beating some steel into complete submission. You got a lotta knowledge about this stuff bouncing around inside that noggin of yours ... you'll be turning out some nice blades before long.

I haven't seen any of the old presentations swords that are engraved on the blades. I've seen them acid etched then gold gilded using a mercury solution process where the mecury is used as a fusion medium for the gold leaf. When the blade is heated, the mercury burns off bonding the gold to the steel. Very interesting and, by today's standards, very dangerous indeed.

Catch ya later my friend,

Chris

I was thinking about this a little further this evening. I would think any engraving on a "user" sword would have to be done after tempering. The whole engraving process creates cuts in the metal, at all sorts of angles. Steel by its very nature would be susceptible to stress cracking during the quench process. This would probably result in many microscopic cracks originating at the angles from the engraving. It would seem the cracks would emanate on all sorts of axis' from the engravers cuts.

Now, a showpiece sword would/could be forged and finished sans the heat treat, resulting in a beautiful canvas for the engraver's art.

Or, the sword could be heat treated and tempered a little softer than normal protocol for a user sword, thus allowing the engraving to be done.

You really got me thinking about this, Mr. Smith.

Cracking due to stress risers would be a problem only in the thinner sections. You could engrave the flats before heat treat on a fairly deep quenching steel(like 5160) and have no problems as the quenchant need not be super fast and violent. "Tempering" as mentioned above is only the process of slightly reducing the as quenched hardness to improve ductility. Often this is done in a kitchen oven as the temperature needed usually runs between 300 and 500 degrees F. Forging is just a method to shape the blade with minimal stock removal.(And it's fun too)
Darcy

Keykeeper, I think your "after heat treating" approach is going to give you fits. That is why most of the decorated swords are etched like Chris said. Yes, you could draw it back a little more to soften it, but on the other thread, I mentioned that with a vacume furnace, or stainless steel foil wrap, you could engrave it soft and then heat treat it. That is what I do with small knife blades. If you are going to do fine line stuff, it (after tempering on hardened steel) would drive you crazy I think. Sharpen, sharpen, Sharpen.

The problem with swords is that they are so long. Finding a way to do this, or someone that knew how, or had a heat treating oven that would accomadate a long blade was the ruling factor here.

Auto45Lee mentioned that he had an oven for sword blades. Now if he were to wrap his blade in stainless foil and bring it to hardening temp, then quench it, you would get no firescale (i don't think) on the blade in the process because the stainless steel foil wrap prevents oxygen from getting to the blade. That is the problem I think with forging. You don't have much to protect it from having to do a lot of finishing after heat treating. You wouldn't want to do that if you engraved it soft. Firescale takes a bit of metal off and a lot of serious abrasives to get it off.

If you want the steel to be soft enough to engrave it, this is the process I use on small knife blades and why wouldn't it be workable on sword steel if you have a furnace that will allow that length of blade? I have only worked with stainless steel and damascus blades so far, so I am not sure if this would work on any other tool steel, but it seems reasonable enough to me. I have never had trouble with stress cracks either, but then that could be the characteristics of the steels used.

Yeeeaaaaooouuuu! ...........I might have opened a can of worms............

By the way Auto45Lee, if you try this, put some brown paper inside the package and seal it all around thouroughly by folding it over and over. the brown paper (paper bag) will burn off all of the oxygen inside the pack. You might talk to some of the knifemakers about this. I make one of a kind special knives occasionally for decoration, but I am not a knife maker per se. I do all of my own tempering etc. but have a small oven. My knives are folders usually. I was just trying to warn Keykeeper so he wouldn't get himself into trouble.

Let me know how it works....................

Use titanium strips inside your stainless foil bag your blades will come out of heat treating a lot cleaner than useing the brown paper. I use the stainless foil on all of my blades in heat treating.
Lee Ferguson

Actually, I have no plans in the near future of making swords, or engraving them. I am merely an admirer of fine engraving at this time. I just chimed in as I have a little knowledge on the heat treat issue.

Now, what I really want to make is a pipehawk, to be engraved by a friend of mine. Chris, you know anyone that could do that?

Does something like this require a great degree of heat treat?

Oh, by the way, I have seen a few "tunnel" forges in my perusal of the net, that were used specifically for the heat treating on swords. Real neat critters in their own right. Some even had thermocouple setups to keep temps at a constant. Amazing the ingenuity used to create the tools to make the art.

I haven't been too envolved in the knife arena for some time, so am not too current in my understanding. Particularly where it comes to sword blades.
I'll try the titanium Lee, if I do another knife. Does it matter what kind of titanium? Probably not.
Ron S

Ron
I have been useing 6AL4v it is working good for me.
Lee F.