question

first question - is it easier to learn using an electric or pneumatic engraver than it is using older traditional methods not sure of the protocols regarding hierarchy of styles sorry

second question -bearing in mind i want to engrave quite hard steel what method would you recommend

no question the pneumatics are easier, as they have a greater dynamic range. having said that i urge everyone to at least try push graving and hammer & chisel. if you never try this, there's a definite missing page in your logbook.these older ways are much less expensive, but more importantly, give you a feel and real appreciation for what engraving is all about. it is about your destination, not how you get there. get a feel for the old way, learn it's' beauty and then progress to the power.
you learn faster with the power, but any veteran will tell you the old way is reall fun to do. it is just way slower, and when you're cranking dollars, well- nuff said.btw.most, if not all the gravers one uses to do push and hammer & chisel, can later be modified to be used in the power equipment. i even sometimes don't turn the power on to my handpiece and just go the old way !! consider a school.

What monk said.

When you learn the traditional methods you have to learn two things at the same time:

How to cut a line, and what to do with it.

When you learn with a pneumatic system you pretty much just have to learn what to do with the lines.

Haven't done it myself but I firmly believe the guys who know what they're saying when the say you can learn to cut with hammer & chisel in under an hour. But then when you're trying to learn what to do with that line you have to pay attention to your technique. With air-assisted you learn to cut a line in 30 seconds and you don't have to pay nearly as much attention to getting the line while you're learning to do curves and other such beginner stuff.

Warfox, from what I have gathered here it would seem the easiest to learn is the power-assist method.
Especially if you took one of many classes you can find out about here.
I learned h & c and it took me a long time & much practice to get good lines.
Hammer & chisel is alot cheaper to get started, the power assist method are much more expensive.
for both you need to know tool geometry for sharpening, should try to learn how to draw and lay out patterns etc.
There are alot of good books out now that explain much of this at least the basics of starting out.
my 2 cents.
Kent

thank you all
will have a look around for some good books and look for leasons local to me
Graham

Hi Graham

There are a few of questions that you have to ask yourself……..

1. How old am I?
2. How much time do I have to devote to learning how to engrave?
3. What exactly do I want to engrave? Anything, guns, knives, jewellery etc?
4. How financial are you?

If you take the hammer/Chisel and burin (push graver) road you are in for a very long learning curve when it comes to the actual cutting. The initial set up costs are minimal. This road can also be initially very frustrating. With a few basic tools you’ll be on your way.

If you take the air assist tool road you will be in for a much shorter learning curve when it comes to the actual cutting in some areas. Initially you will get less frustration. This method will start costing you some serious money.

However over time the two methods balance themselves out. Exquisite work is produced by hammer/chisel and air assist gravers.

At some stage you will have to pick up a pencil and paper and start drawing as that is a critical element to engraving and a stage that cannot be ignored.

The design, knowledge and understanding of what you are doing takes the same amount of time no matter what method you choose.

You also will need to devote some serious time to practicing. By serious I mean at least a couple of hours a day or more and a couple of years to become proficient. How proficient you become at engraving is directly related to how much time you spend practicing your cutting techniques and drawing skills. An hour a week will get you nowhere fast!!!

Maybe start with a handful of basic tools and a couple of good books……………see if you actually enjoy the process and have a feel for it…………..then make your decision from there. At least that way you don’t have a big financial commitment to it.


Cheers
Andrew

Learning H&C is very cheap, but learning with pneumatic tools will save years of struggle and is very expensive by comparrison, but learning to draw and sharpen your tools is essential. That doesn't cost much at all. I told Don Glaser once that as much of a revolutionary contribution to engraving the pneumatic tool was, the sharpening hone was the real blessing in either case.

It took me years to learn how to create a consistent point that would cut properly, but then to learn all of the qualities of sharpening to get certain effects was another added pain in tool sharpening. The power hone gets you going quickly. The rest just takes practice. The decision can only be made by the amount of commitment that you have or are willing to make and the money you are willing to spend.

Either approach is rewarding in different ways and by different degrees.
Ron S

I started with H&C and have yet to do anything with my GraverMAx. I used my GraverMeister a few time. I think H&C taught me more about control and technique, so I can try to clean up my act with the GraverMax.

What do you want to engrave???

warfox said:

second question -bearing in mind i want to engrave quite hard steel what method would you recommend

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To properly answer this question we need to know what is made of "quite hard" steel you are interested in engraving. Since you live in the UK, I suspect it isn't guns. Most double barreled shotguns and rifles found in the UK are not made of what American gun engravers consider hard steel. Over here we have to engrave all types of really hard guns since we mainly work on previously finished and hardened rifles and revolvers made of very hard chrome moly or stainless steel. Are you thinking of engraving dies or motorcycle parts perhaps. Many members of the Cafe specialize in engraving certain objects and can give you a better answer if they know more. For instance, if you intend to engrave dies it would be a waste of time to learn to draw scrollwork.

Let us know about your goals.

Roger

My advice, for what it's worth, is that unless you have many thousands of hours to spend learning traditional techniques, go the air assisted route. Forget electric engravers. Self teaching H&C or push graver involves many months of building up muscle memory and that's before cutting well and precisely. Air assistance negates this and you can concentrate on the cutting. I learned all the traditional methods and with the exception of cutting 'small scroll' air assist is what I'd choose anytime. Regarding small scroll, with the advent of Airtact even this can be cut with air assistance.

The other thing that will take many, many hours is learning to set up/sharpen your tools. For manual engraving using a sharpening fixture is not necessarily the way to go because setting up a tool for air assistance isn't the same as for a hand pushed graver. Your tools can end up too sharp. Without someone to guide you you can end up never learning to properly sharpen your tools. With the jigs and guides available for air assisted tool geometry you can be sharpening tools correctly within hours not months.

In conclusion, my advice is to book yourself in for a class if you're serious about learning engraving. It will save you many fruitless hours of struggle plus you'll find out if engraving is really for you. Strange as it may seem, it doesn't suit everybody. In a class you'll be able to see the progress you can make using power tools and see whether or not you want to progress further without laying out many thousands of pounds in purchasing equipment first. There are classes in both the USA and Europe and with the £ strength against the $ and weakness against the € I know which side of the Atlantic I'd be heading!

Marcus, you bring up a good point about classes. With the dollar so low it makes taking a class in the US affordable for people in Europe. There are still some decent prices for air fare and with the exchange rate it may be cheaper to come to the US.

you can be sharpening tools correctly within hours not months.

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If only it were so. I find sharpening extremely frustrating, always have. I have been trying to correctly sharpen knives for 50 years without consistent results. I have the GRS system which has been a boon, but one still has to figure out what angles one needs for different cuts in different materials.

thank you all for your replies
looking at them all i think that realistically i am no artist and at 48 i have few years left so learning to engrave using hammer and chisel is not out of the question so i think i would look to go the assisted way but will try H&C
as for funds married four kids who are waiting for me to grow old die to inherit the house so they are still at home leaves me few spare coins each week i will have to look second hand probably good old ebay for starters
as for what i want to engrave is a project I'm undertaking to make a sword and scabbard so i want to engrave the bronze hardware but most importantly the blade this will be a Damascus steel a mix of aisi 1060 and L6 maybe so not sure how to calculate the hardness to a scale

beegee

Knives are easy. Here's How I Sharpen Knives
Main thing is - just like for your gravers - getting a system. I've got the ultimate one, an EdgePro - the pro model.

Warfox, You mentioned that you were going to engrave on the blade of a sword. If this sword is tempered, you might be jumping on a bee's nest. Most of the swords are etched because the tempering won't be engravable by traditional means. I would have it rockwell tested before I even considered it. If it falls around 40 rockwell you could probably do it. If it is harder, it becomes a struggle even for an experienced engraver, for whatever that is worth. Not a good piece to "learn" on and you might need a rubber room close by to vent. :0
Ron S

goodpoint Ron could it be engraved before tempering ? wpold i lose the engraving during temper and clean maybe i revisit the area i want engrave to be elsewhere other than the blade .back to the drawing board

Yes, it could be engraved if you have axcess to it before it is tempered. In that case you shouldn't have too many problems, but my alert mechanism went haywire when you said you were going to engrave on the blade. Any finished knife blade commercially made would be impossible to engrave. On the other hand, working with the makers allows you the oportunity to get the piece before it is tempered, so I would say go for it.

As for "loosing the engraving during tempering", that would depend on the makers tempering techniques. If it is done in a vacume or stainless steel wrap, you don't get the firescale, but you need someone to temper it that understands this process. That would be some thing to check into, because you certainly could ruin the piece if handled improperly.

Oh, another thing is that if it is done by the methods I suggested, you should come out with a slate gray finish that can be easily removed with minimal hand polishing (not buffing), but if you want a mirror finish, you wouldn't have to do so much work if you get it to a finished shine before engraving it, and then getting the morror shine back won't damage the crispness of the engraving. Does this make any sense?

Hope this helps you go forward, Warfox.
Ron S