Alternative forms of ornament

Many of the experienced and highly skilled engravers here at the Cafe' started their careers as gun engravers. For that reason when we talk about ornamental design we focus on what I like to call "gun scroll." There are many styles of scroll used on guns as you will find illustrated at www.engravingglossary.com.

While gun scroll looks good on just about anything you can carve or engrave, there are somewhat different styles of ornament that can be used effectively on jewelry, knives, musical instruments, and watches.

A good source of ideas can be found on the cases of 19th and early 20th century pocket watches. Watch case engravers of that era all engraved with the hand pushed burin. Much of the time the hand engraving was combined with background treatment done with a rose engine lathe. You will find that most of the watch case ornament is far more floral than gun scroll, which is mostly scrolling vines.

An excellent source of images of these watches can be found at Heritage Auctions. When you click on the thumbnail of the watch a full description along with additional images will come up. When you click on the additional image you will see a very large high resolution image that will allow you to actually see into the cuts of the engraving.

Here is a link to the current auction of post 1900 pocket watches: https://jewelry.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?No=0&Ne=2024&N=790+231+776+2050

There are literally hundreds of watches featured. Not all have engraved cases but if you open the ones with hunter style cases most will be engraved. You will also find that many have hand engraved inscriptions on the couvet inside the back cover or elaborate monograms on the back of the case.

One thing you will see frequently on American pocket watches is a sort of poor quality English scroll used as background or filler. In the watch trade this is known as "vermicelli." The vermicelli is one part of the design I would not replicate unless you replace it with good English scroll. The last watch in the group below has the vermicelli on the outer edges of the design.

Below is just a small sample of the kinds of engraving you will find on the watches. The images you can see at Heritage Auctions will be much larger than those on this forum.

Thanks Roger, these are really great inspiration. I'd really love to know how they used a rose engine to cut the concentric circles in the 2nd and 3rd from the last watches. How did they start and stop the concentric lines before cutting into the engraved design? Was the cutting tool a drag that could be raised and lowered onto the surface while the watch was turned by hand? The same goes for the parallel lines on the 3rd image. However they were done, it gives us great cause to respect those engravers who came before us and our modern equipment.

I kinda like the vermicelli but I can see why some might not. Beautiful pictures Roger, thanks for posting this.

Doc,
I'm not sure if I have the answer but I do know a little about the watch cases. In our town there was the Star Watchcase Company and they did LOTS of pocket watches. For the most part the watches were only partially engraved. The engravers would make a master "hub" and it was hardened. The detail was amazing. The hubs were pressed into another steel negative and that was used to press the engraving into the watch. Usually the watches were of a high karat gold so they were quite soft. The master hub would last longer as the negatives did all the pressing.
I would guess (and only guess) that the rose engine work was done first and then the pattern pressed in the watch. The pressure would smooth the areas needed and the other engine turning area was relieved.
At one time my father had one of the hubs and it was amazing and was one of the reasons I got interested in engraving. A watch collector liked it a LOT more than my father so he sold it unfortunately.
More recently I have seen modern Buck knives with this style of engraving pressed in and even under a scope it is near impossible to see it was pressed.
At this factory the less expensive watches were done with a pantograph. They used large disks about 24" in diameter with a pattern on them and it traced on to something like a 12 spindle machine.
The sad part in the later years some of these hubs and disks were just piled into metal barrels and placed outside and rusted. I was able to buy some of my very first tools from them. I told them what I wanted and went to the tool room and bought several gravers for something like a $1.00 each or whatever they paid way back when. All of it gone but a memory now.

This is an amazing resource! Thank you Roger!

An important lesson learned is that great design carries the work even when the cutting isn't perfect. Under close examination many examples look coarse compared to the flawless execution of today's microscope and handpiece equipped engraver, but they lack nothing! The design work is so superb and the cutting is full of life and character that the end result is breathtaking.

Thank you for sharing this Roger! Very cool watches.

Don

Doc Mark said:

Thanks Roger, these are really great inspiration. I'd really love to know how they used a rose engine to cut the concentric circles in the 2nd and 3rd from the last watches. How did they start and stop the concentric lines before cutting into the engraved design? Was the cutting tool a drag that could be raised and lowered onto the surface while the watch was turned by hand? The same goes for the parallel lines on the 3rd image. However they were done, it gives us great cause to respect those engravers who came before us and our modern equipment.

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Doc,

Rex explained a lot of the process. At one time I watched a video of a rose engine engraver at work on an engraved watch back. The ornamental engraving was done first then the engine operator mounted the work in his lathe. The lathe is turned slowly by hand. When the cutter approaches the engraving, the operator lifts the cutter then lowers it on the other side of the engraving. If you look closely at some of the blown-up images you can see where the lathe bit went a tiny bit too far and got into the engraved ornament.

Regarding the parallel lines, that is done with another type of engraving machine known as a lining or ruling machine. The late Bob Swartley had one of those. As far as I know the rose engines are only used on circular work pieces. Using a series of cams, the engine can create all sorts of patterns such as guilloché and lace designs. Nonetheless, I hope our fellow engravers won't get hung up on their inability to create engine turned backgrounds. These watch designs can be used with all sorts of background treatment.

I have attached a cropped image where you can see that the operator stopped the cutter shy of the engraving and in other parts he let the cutter get a little into the design. You can also see that this particular piece was clearly hand pushed by the nature of the flared cuts.

thanks, Roger! the work in the second photo (in your original post), with the dark background, looks like it might be niello? or is probably just enameled?

Mitch,

I think it is probably enamel. Enamel was used on European watch cases going back into the 18th century. The niello process is usually not so shiny and is used more to blacken outlines and shading rather than background. Without the watch in hand, I can't be sure.

The watch was probably the most technologically advanced thing in the world at that time, so it merited lots of gold and rich decoration.

I tried to find a good photo of the Buck 111 knife but didn't seem to be out there. From the small photo here you can see the detail and even some small burs from the original engraving. I imagine the ones Roger showed are hand cut or partially hand cut but I have seen many watches which were hard to determine.

I have a couple of western buckles done by the Gist company. They are stamped or something...I can't tell how they're made, but I can tell you that they are literally 100% perfect and you could never tell them from a hand engraved piece.

I'm sure it is the same process as the watches or knives. The hubs I saw were REALLY hard as well. I assume they were hardened after as most of the engravers were push engravers and didn't even use hammer/chisel. At one time they had 30 engravers there but it was before my time.

for your very own engine turning machine go to:http://goldmachinery.com/machinery/1854.htm

I don't know if they have any watch hubs but Adlers in New Orleans has a huge collection of dies that one of the jewelers was trying to save. Many of them were stored upstairs and sat under a leak in the roof and so were lost. Sam, I don't know if you ever do any work for Adlers, I think I get most of their engraving, but if you ever get a chance, introduce yourself and ask if someone can take a moment to show you their die striking hammer. It's a monstrous two story affair that has long leather straps spanning the two floors. I think it was installed around the turn of he century. They used it to strike ornate gold Mardi Gras favors at one time. I used to use an old die striker to stamp gold pendants for Jimmy Swaggert (before his unseemly demise) and I thought it was a beast. Adlers machine is like Thor's hammer.

Southern Custom said:

I don't know if they have any watch hubs but Adlers in New Orleans has a huge collection of dies that one of the jewelers was trying to save. Many of them were stored upstairs and sat under a leak in the roof and so were lost. Sam, I don't know if you ever do any work for Adlers, I think I get most of their engraving, but if you ever get a chance, introduce yourself and ask if someone can take a moment to show you their die striking hammer. It's a monstrous two story affair that has long leather straps spanning the two floors. I think it was installed around the turn of he century. They used it to strike ornate gold Mardi Gras favors at one time. I used to use an old die striker to stamp gold pendants for Jimmy Swaggert (before his unseemly demise) and I thought it was a beast. Adlers machine is like Thor's hammer.

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Jimmy Swaggart! OMG...never mind

I met an engraver that works for Adlers. A German fellow...Franz maybe? Been a few years. I wasn't aware that they had an in-house engraver. I've never done any work for them.

That hammer sounds awesome. Would love to see it. Let's do a road trip!

I really appreciate the small slice of history of engraving here. Thank all of you!!!

Is there any way to determine which of the watches have ornamental backs, other than opening each picture? Thanks

I love the engraving on old watches. I do try to include some like that when I can.

diandwill said:

Is there any way to determine which of the watches have ornamental backs, other than opening each picture? Thanks

I love the engraving on old watches. I do try to include some like that when I can.

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Usually the repeaters and ones with high jewel movements are plain. Most Patek are plain. Most of the American made hunter case watches are engraved. I still end up opening several that are plain but I find the hunt worthwhile.

Thanks so much for this resource, and the interesting discussion on the rose engine and interesting lining machine.This made my day.