Servicing Engraved watches

Vilts I really appreciate your advices , thanks for tips in our private conversations, although this tread I made because I wanted to know more about servicing and look deeper into watch world.
Right now Im engraving watch parts for a company and I dont really have any worries but sometimes when I have free windows I scroll through auctions and buy watches of different price ranges (max 450 usd or so) but I ised Rolex as an example because I never found anybody discussing this matter . I like to engrave things I like vintage,new,bit used if I engrave what I like I always try something new and challenge myself without possible worries about clients watch.
I think that im definitely Not the only one who is interested in this matter

You chose a pretty tricky brand as an example. I've never worked on a Rolex but I hear that they require the old, used/broken parts to be shipped back to them in order for you to be able to order spares. And that's even if you have a parts account. This is supposedly to limit the selling of these worn parts to third parties.

basiecally said:

ETA has limited part sales only to service shops that are licenced by any corresponding brand of Swatch group.

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I service my own watches, and I have had no issue whatsoever ordering parts for ETA movements, as recently as two weeks ago. There are watch material suppliers that can provide them if you know the watch service industry, BUT, they discourage amateur watch enthusiasts from ordering parts, so it's a little hard to break into the "club".

I think it's important to mention that Authorized dealers of Rolex, Tag, Etc., WILL service engraved watches, but they will not service them under warranty. The good news is that these watches rarely have anything go wrong with them that is a true warranty condition anyway.

But let's talk about why these manufacturers do not warranty engraved watches. There are two conditions under which a watch will be engraved.

1) The watch movement has been removed from the case so the vibrations from the engraving process will not harm the movement. In this condition, the watch has been opened, the stem has been removed, the movement has been extracted and set-aside while the work is being done. Unauthorized opening of the watch case voids the warranty, whether you engrave it or not, so the warranty is over before the engraving has even begun. While the movement is out of the watch case, it is vulnerable to dust infiltration, and all manner of other hazards... inadvertently touching the balance wheel can do damage to the balance staff, making the watch far less accurate, or even non-functional. The process of removing and replacing the winding stem can do SERIOUS damage to the keyless works if you don't know what you're doing. This is VERY bad, and will result in an expensive repair. When the watch is reassembled it needs to be resealed for water resistance, and it should be pressure tested to make certain the seals are all correct. If this is not performed by an authorized repair center, why would they be willing to provide a warranty?

2) The watch has NOT been removed from the case, and engraving has been performed while the movement is still in there. Under this condition the movement is subject to the shock of every impact from the graver. This is far from ideal. While it's extremely likely that the watch will still appear to be running, without the proper equipment to insure that the watch is running correctly with the correct amplitude and an acceptable range of beat error, how would you know everything is OK? How upsetting would it be for the customer to notice his watch is losing or gaining 500 seconds per day? Without access to a timegrapher or similar test equipment, how would you know it's not damaged? Again, under these circumstances, why would the manufacturer assume responsibility for a watch that has been engraved?

The BEST course of action, in my opinion, is to engrave luxury timepieces when they are due for periodic service, which happens every 5-8 years. The owner of the watch can drop off the watch at the service center, and the repairman can remove the movement from the case, at which time the case can be taken to an engraving shop. Upon completion, it can head back to the watch repair shop, or authorized dealer to have the movement properly reinstalled in the case, properly waterproofed and fully tested. Periodic service is never covered under the warranty, and everybody is happy.

No matter what, if you want to engrave fine timepieces, the engraver should establish a relationship with a local watchmaker, have the movement removed before engraving, then reinserted after the work is done. This is NOT expensive on most watches, even luxury brands, although Vacheron Constantin, Patek Phillippe and Audemars Piguet may run a bit higher.

I engraved my own Rolex, and the metal is MISERABLY hard. I removed the movement myself, I have the tools and confidence to do that. I know some of the pros on here have engraved Luxury watches while the movement was still in the case. This is a risk I would never take. Even if I believed I could flawlessly perform the engraving without error, (a feat I have yet to accomplish) I would never put the movement through the punishment of the engraving process.

Mike, I've also successfully ordered parts for vintage ETA calibres. I think some suppliers still have some stock for the ones that are still in use for production but there was an announcement from ETA a couple of years back saying that their movements and parts would no longer be available to the public. This caused a lot of independent watchmakers to move away from ETA as a base for their watches and find alternatives.

Sellita movements are high grade Swiss ETA clones and the parts are available and interchangeable.

basiecally said:

Mike, I've also successfully ordered parts for vintage ETA calibres. I think some suppliers still have some stock for the ones that are still in use for production but there was an announcement from ETA a couple of years back saying that their movements and parts would no longer be available to the public. This caused a lot of independent watchmakers to move away from ETA as a base for their watches and find alternatives.

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Yes, that announcement was made... however... The key phrase is "to the public". Watch Material houses have been complaining more about the price, than the availability.

My supplier has explained to me that the announcement (and policy) was made to primarily discourage the amateur watch trade from creating new boutique lines that are focused on using ETA movements instead of developing in-house calibres. A few years back you couldn't swing a dead cat in a circle without hitting a dozen new "micro-brands", and the announcement caused a change in direction for Horology as we know it, which I feel is a good thing. So the net effect of the policy did cause the boutique makers to step away from ETA and head into Sellita, as well as a renewed interest from Ronda who have re-entered the mechanical side of Horology after 30 some years so they can capitalize on the ETA change in marketing. The new R150 is a splendid ebauche from what I have heard.

But on the ETA front, parts have been plentiful in the USA, although the prices have nearly tripled as a result on EVERY ebauche in the market, with the exception of the 19j and 21j movements coming out of Asia. As Sam states, Sellita parts are also available and interchangeable within the movements they have cloned, which are primarily the 28XX series, with the possible exception of the 2892A2 which seems to have many non-ubiquitous parts.

The point that needed to be made, however, is that watches with ETA movements are certainly serviceable, and will remain so into the future. The
general announcement which caused many watch enthusiasts to panic is a bit of a ruse, engineered to manipulate the mid-priced horology market, and it worked.

Mike_Morgan said:

Yes, that announcement was made... however... The key phrase is "to the public". Watch Material houses have been complaining more about the price, than the availability.

My supplier has explained to me that the announcement (and policy) was made to primarily discourage the amateur watch trade from creating new boutique lines that are focused on using ETA movements instead of developing in-house calibres. A few years back you couldn't swing a dead cat in a circle without hitting a dozen new "micro-brands", and the announcement caused a change in direction for Horology as we know it, which I feel is a good thing. So the net effect of the policy did cause the boutique makers to step away from ETA and head into Sellita, as well as a renewed interest from Ronda who have re-entered the mechanical side of Horology after 30 some years so they can capitalize on the ETA change in marketing. The new R150 is a splendid ebauche from what I have heard.

But on the ETA front, parts have been plentiful in the USA, although the prices have nearly tripled as a result on EVERY ebauche in the market, with the exception of the 19j and 21j movements coming out of Asia. As Sam states, Sellita parts are also available and interchangeable within the movements they have cloned, which are primarily the 28XX series, with the possible exception of the 2892A2 which seems to have many non-ubiquitous parts.

The point that needed to be made, however, is that watches with ETA movements are certainly serviceable, and will remain so into the future. The
general announcement which caused many watch enthusiasts to panic is a bit of a ruse, engineered to manipulate the mid-priced horology market, and it worked.

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Did not know the back story to that, thank you!

Roger B said:

I'm not a watchmaker but I would be wondering whether a non-licenced watchmaker for makers such as Rolex would actually be able to source genuine parts or would they be only be left to use generic parts if available?

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Non factory authorized watch repairmen (watchmakers like me) that do work on Rolex for example can overhaul one just like any other authorized person but they cannot get parts and they cannot do warranty work. The only brand I have first hand experience with is Rolex.

The authorized CW21 will have a parts account with Rolex and they are extremely strict about not only their parts but also the watchmakers tools and cleaning equipment. If they don't like what you're using upon a personal inspection of your shop, they can and have taken away authorization to do their bidding. They will also take your parts account if you are caught or suspected of selling genuine parts.

This is why it is so hard to source genuine parts aside from the occasional odd part you may find on a forum or ebay for instance. Even then one cannot guarantee they are genuine. I have engraved a few Rolex stainless oyster case backs with monograms and the like directly for Rolex authorized repair shops so there was no problem.

There are many independent cw21 watchmakers who are certified repairmen for that brand who do not work for Rolex service centers (RSC) and if they choose to refuse to work on your engraved watch it is merely a personal choice, Rolex isn't holding their livelihood over their heads if they take the job in.

I can't imagine the parent company preventing their authorized independent techs from doing their jobs just because of embellishment that does not alter the function or the water tightness of their cases. I personally have overhauled just 3 Rolexes and only one needed a part and it was an act of congress and sheer good luck that I found the correct part from my supply house still sealed in the original package.

On occasion you can find a genuine part at a reputable parts house like Cas-Ker but this only occurs when they buy out a watchmakers estate and sift through all the parts he may have had. It is for this reason that I don't work on them unless they are my own.