Critique Request English Fine Scroll Reality Check

I spent my latest practice time on basic English Fine Scroll working on a practice piece copying Marcus' layout across half of it.

There are a host of minor issues with scroll shape, some roughness in the cutting, a little more refinement needed in shading and a bit more shading (?) and outside work that's too long; I think the outside work is the worst of it; the layout itself is about 10% too big.

What I'm really after is a reality check on the overall cutting. I think it's reasonably good for a beginning level, far from excellent but beyond rough beginner. So if I'm wrong I need to be disillusioned and have my perceptions recalibrated. Any input on that would be appreciated. Of course any input on the details would be welcome too.

Thanks
Jeremy

You are not too far off... some of the scroll backbones are not symmetrical and maybe work on making the tendrils somewhat more "delicate"? Not quite so bold.

A little work needs to be done on the way you're leading off the tail of the center scroll.


Does Marcus still get one here? This is his bailiwick... Come to think of it, I haven't seen him post in quite a while...


Brian

Maybe try cutting just the backbones of the correct alternating scrolls.
First in a straight line...inside a border.
Once you get a handle on a good... correctly drawn and cut scroll something that you have developed muscle memory of.
Then try filling in with the leaves.
After you have control of scrolls in a straight line then ease into what you are trying to do now.
An exercise similar to this picture.

Brian
Thank you for the comments.
The more I look at it the worse the scrolls look
Jeremy

Thanks Shawn
Good advice on practicing alternating scrolls. I've not been posting my basic practice like that but maybe next time I do a plate like that I will.
Jeremy

Jeremy, get back on the horse. There is only one way to get "there".


B.

That's definitely English with your character added to it didyoung

Marcus makes it look easy, and I can assure you it's not. I have Marcus' sample plate here and it's the best English fine scroll I've ever seen. It's really perfect. I think you've diagnosed your own problems so have another go at it. Perhaps concentrate on doing 3 or 4 scrolls to perfection, then expand your design once you work out the kinks. This is a good attempt though. :clapping:

It's a challenging thing to draw. There seems to be a rythm to the way good english scroll engravers lay out so many scrolls and make it look good. Would anyone say they've heard or read about some theory, some approach they use doing this kind of layout to make it attractive?

Is there a set size english scrollwork should be done at?

(Sorry if i'm hijacking the thread)

Keep working on the drawing part. The cutting part will come. Good work, better than mine.
Skill comes from diligence .

Dani,
With regards to size, off the top of my head I think Marcus says about 7mm is the max scroll size. It's limited by how large a plunge cut can be made to cut the inside work in proportion. I don't see how anything larger than a cm could be done with that cutting style.
The only reference I'm aware of is Marcus's publication which is excellent.
Jeremy

As others have stated I think you have a good handle on most of the problems. And Sam is right - it isn't that easy to properly cut fine English scroll. I've been working on it and can tell you what has helped me. I started to do more drawing. The more I engrave , the more I've found if I can't draw it properly, I most certainly won't be able to engrave it properly. When you draw the scrolls, be sure the space inside the scrolls is uniform. Many of yours are not. (Mine too!) That really stands out and not in a good way. I also found it helpful to do a single line of scrolls with a larger one in the center and then three to the right side and three to the left side similar to how most trigger guards are engraved on English shotguns. It also helps to draw a line around the scroll work before starting the outside work so it comes out a uniform distance from the scroll work. I also noticed your outside work tends to grow straight out of many of the scrolls. Please go back and look at some of the work Marcus has done. The "buds" (outside work) grows from the scrolls just like a scroll does. I know one of the biggest problems I've had is the difference in looking and seeing. I've been looking at the work Marcus has provided, drawn or cut mine, and it doesn't look right. When I go back and REALLY look again and SEE what Marcus has done it becomes quite clear why mine doesn't look right. It hasn't been done right. The reason I suggested doing a limited number of scrolls is trying to get a few done well verses more done poorly. It's kind of like a friend has told me when we are shooting our target rifles - "If you can't get two bullets in the same hole there isn't much us in shooting five shot groups!" Simple, but it makes sense.

I hope some of this has been a help for you. I'll get busy and get some practice plates done and posted. That should make you feel better! All the best, Don Hansen.

Thanks for the input Don.
Jeremy

Two points that were the hardest for me to learn regarding English scroll were how to arrange the scroll pattern in such a way that the eye never hovers on one spot because of an irregularity. Scroll arrangement is tough. Also the scrolls typically are a little bit more of a tighter spiral than other styles of scroll.

One way to describe English scroll is the scrolls are more "round" whereas some try to draw them while still in the "western" mindset, elongating them. English scroll is tight and consistant in shape.

Bill