Question: The Flick - Burr Problems - Beginner Ignorance

I know this is basically impossible to answer on line, and hard enough for that matter to demonstrate in person, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway. I've been practicising off an on for several months, as much as I can as a home hobbyist but I'm still having problems getting the burr at the end of the cut to release, most particularly on plunge cuts like those in fine scroll. I know this is a matter of practice and I'm continually re-watching videos trying to pick up on subtle twists and turns but does anyone have any particular technique they've found useful in improving burr release? I suspect one of my major problems (a major problem generally) is that I'm actually cutting too deep.

Thanks for any feedback.

Jeremy

If you think you are too deep, then you definitely are too deep. Too deep will keep you from breaking the chip easily.

If you are cutting real deep on purpose then it can be done in 2 cuts or come shallower at the end of the cut and break the chip, then recut the end just like doing a back cut.

Try practicing at one quarter the depth you are at now and see if that helps. You are going to have to learn to cut even shallower than that to shade...so the practice will be good.

Jeremy, I had the same problem when I was just starting out... And I couldn't solve the problem, no matter what I did!... Then it occurred to me... many of the instructors and masters in this craft sell castings of their work, and these are exact replicas of the finished piece, except made of plastic. I bought a few to study, and what I learned was that I wasn't just going too deep, I was going IDIOTICALLY too deep!

From there, I was able to adjust and replicate what I was looking at on the castings, and just like that, the problem was over! You can start by cutting shallower, but getting study pieces like castings can be really valuable!

This happens to me when bright cutting. What causes it for me is that some times I tilt the vice and don't really notice that I have. Looking through a microscope, I don't notice the tilt and the tilt causes me to go deeper when I don't want to.

I had the same epiphany as Mike with castings. I was way too deep.

Is there a UK or European source of castings? i would love to get my hands on something to educate myself further

Karlspinks said:

Is there a UK or European source of castings? i would love to get my hands on something to educate myself further

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Check Marcus Hunt's website. He may have some for sale.

You can order castings from FEGA.com
You can get several in one shipment to spread the cost over them.
Most are 20.00 each.
Great study aids.

Well the consensus seems to confirm what I probably already knew, that I'm likely cutting to deep. I won'd be surprised if this is the case as it's a habit I tend to slip into. I'll make a renewed effort on my current hacks to be overly "delicate" - I'll see if that counteracts my stone age efforts
Thanks for the input.
Jeremy

Several engravers sell them also:
Lee Griffiths, Marty Rabeno, Shawn Didyoung, and more

Hi Jeremy

Your problem is to do with technique more than anything else. That and the metal you are cutting, the shape of your graver and the graver you are using.

Watch someone western bright cutting and you will see just how much metal can be popped out by sheer brute force and technique.

Technique............Come to the end of your cut and literally wrench the the metal out by flexing your wrist forward and upward, all in one motion. You will build up muscle memory after a while and it won't seem like brute force and will simply become an unconscious movement.

Metal you are cutting........some metals like cast 316L are sticky and gummy and the chip doesn't release well and sometimes may require a couple of goes at it. Sterling silver, C2 titanium, 416 stainless and a lot of gun metal release very well.

Graver metal.............Carbides don't have a lot of flex whereas HSS, Glensteel etc have some flex in them which help with popping chips out.

Graver shape.............If your HSS gravers are tapered on the sides and top it will give the graver a springing type action. The flexing/spring action will help pop the chip out.

For instance, when I'm cutting watches the chip doesn't always release well and I have to go back and dig the end of the cut out. Generally I'm using C-Max Carbide which doesn't spring or flex well. On the other end of the spectrum when I'm cutting something like Nickel or titanium the chip pops out with an audible "ping"

So it's a mixed bag of combinations. I would suggest that it's not the depth of your cuts (unless you are digging through to China in which case you would have a lot of other issues like gravers breaking every few cuts etc etc) Your biggest problem is simply a matter of experience.........try a bit of brute force and see how far that gets you

Cheers
Andrew

Andrew Biggs said:

try a bit of brute force and see how far that gets you

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Ah, something I can understand

Thanks for the interesting perspective Andrew.
I've been experimenting with tapered gravers following Marcus Hunts Fine English Scroll video and book so I can appreciate the impact of "spring" and flex.
I've mostly worked various steel plates so don't have much experience with other metals for comparison; perhaps I should add to the experimentation there. Unfortunately the practice plates are of unknow composition but I assume "mild steel". Does anyone know the composition of the GRS practice plates?
Most of my gravers are HSS although I occassional try a M42 and Glensteel.

But back to brute force.... I've been experimenting with that a it actually and it feels like I'm doing so excessively which is why I had the suspicion I was working too deep - that and comparing to some examples.


Jeremy

Yes, everything you do as a novice/beginner is a conscious effort and requires concentration with exaggerated movements.

As I said, after a while it all becomes easier and more natural movements because your muscle memory and technique kicks in and you don't need to think about it.

I once saw an interview with Jon Bon Jovi where he said that when he's on stage pumping out the music, rocking all over the stage and singing at the top of his lungs............he's thinking about what's for dinner and what his kids were up to that day.

In other words, he's done it that often that it was all second nature and he didn't really need to think about what he was doing any more.

Cheers
Andrew

My best advise is don't over think it. Just relax. The more you relax the easier it becomes.

one must learn to anticipate the time needed to get to an exact point on the engraved surface. at this time, one must begin lowering the wrist in a coordinated effort, as the wrist is lowering, the tool is pushing less metal therefore less effort is needed to continue the cut. now, when about 10% of the previously alloted time remains, lower your wfist and violently force the graver tip up and out of the cut. a short way to say this is to just "pop out" when the time is right.