TIME required to do engraving like this

I think what puzzled me, and possibly a few others in this thread, is that highsierra asked experts in the field of engraving "how long should this take?" and when presented with credible answers from well respected engravers, he rallied to question the estimates in a push-back campaign of sorts. Additionally, the question was "how long does this take" instead of "how much would this cost?" or even "What's it worth?".

It then turned into the more global question of, "Is this a good investment in the first place?"

It seems pretty clear that "factory" engraving has higher value in the collectors market, even if the factory engraving is inferior to a perfectly executed fully bespoke creation from a lesser known artist. And then there are engravings by well known masters of engraving. These could (and rightfully should) actually raise the value to be above the sought-after factory engraving, because engravings by that particular artist are in some cases more collectable than the firearm on which the work has been performed.

The price of a mans time is in the eye of the man doing the work. The Value of that time is borne out in the pride of possessing the item. The CASH VALUE of that time is revealed in the secondary market.

I personally don't "invest" in art. I consume it... I love having it around and I revel in the thrill of finding something that is pleasing to my eye, and I absolutely never reduce art to the level of simply being dollars and cents. There is almost nothing on this planet more utterly common than money... it's everywhere.

Beauty on the other hand, is rare and special.

"I personally don't "invest" in art. I consume it... I love having it around and I revel in the thrill of finding something that is pleasing to my eye, and I absolutely never reduce art to the level of simply being dollars and cents. There is almost nothing on this planet more utterly common than money... it's everywhere.

Beauty on the other hand, is rare and special. "
One of the best comments I have ever read about art...THANKS MIKE!

A noble show of appreciation for art forms. I fully agree in theory, but most people do not have unlimited funds and wish to spend their money wisely. In the gun collecting field, even among the wealthy, these beautiful engraved guns are a part of a person's financial portfolio. As are coin collections, stamp collections, watch collections, etc. (all of which I collect). I have lots of money now, but grew up in a family with very little expendable income. As much as I like beautiful things, when I buy an art/collectible item I always consider if I am paying an amount I could recover if sold. I do get bored with items, and sell them and replace them with something that appeals to me more at the time. I do not like losing large amounts of money, perhaps losing money is of no concern to others. As "utterly common" as money is, it sure can come in handy.

highsierra, I can only hope that someday your appreciation of art will surpass your need to feel wealthy.

I am acquainted with a fellow who would be considered a very important collector in the western art field. He buys new pieces every year, and sells some old ones to make room the for new ones. I asked him if this was profitable. He laughed and told me no, not usually. He told me he buys art for two reasons: because he loves to enjoy the beauty of it, and because he wants to support the artists. You can't put a price on that.

Stewart

highsierra,
you might find a membership in FEGA, Firearms Engravers Guild of America to be a profitable investment and a great learning tool. Membership is open to anyone with a interest in engraving whether they engrave or not.
The cost is just $50.00 per year in the U.S and includes four magazines a year full of engraving information.
The Annual meeting in January will put you face to face with most of the American Masters and the Regular Members displaying their art in Las Vegas. The show includes engraving seminars and they are open to all members. A wonderful networking and learning occasion.
You will see the finest engraving in America. Might be the most profitable $50,00 you ever spent.

Mike_Morgan said:

highsierra, I can only hope that someday your appreciation of art will surpass your need to feel wealthy.

Click to expand...

Appreciaton/monetary value, it is not an either/or situation. Every collector I know in my 50+ years of collecting guns, coins, stamps, spurs, duck decoys, etc., etc., buys, sells, and trades. We want to continually obtain new things we find that we want to own. That is fun and exciting. But we are not hoarders, because of space or finances. My house is already loaded with quality western collectibles, and I mean loaded. People say it looks like a museum. When I obtain new items, which is often, I have to make room, so out goes something that I have enjoyed but am willing to let move on and let someone else enjoy. Bottom line is these art/collectible items are mere objects. You enjoy and treasure them for however long you possess them. The topic of how long does it take to engrave, how much cost to engrave, and what is the value if you decide to sell it, was just a conversation among gun collectors trying to determine fair value. You can't just look up custom engraving in a Blue Book, that is why I posted a picture of a gun to evaluate. You guys are the experts, and have some difference of opinions yourselves. I appreciate every comment, and am putting all that information you are offering into my thinking cap.

I can feel a lot if appreciation for highsierra's stand on investment vs value for engraved guns.

I have a long history of collecting and selling and using guns. I have never bought or sold an engraved gun, as they don't hold any personal appeal to me. They are a tool, no different from a screwdriver. I was a rifle competitor and coach, with three standout students...all three shot on NCAA scholarships, two of those shot multiple World Cup events, and one went to the Olympics. It is a game of personal mental control, and not about the actual tool we use which happens to be a gun. There would be absolutely NO investment value in having one of these working guns embellished.

On the other hand, I do embellish metal objects for other people. It is an art form that speaks to them at a period in their lives. The object, and the engraving will hold little value to someone else aside from being a piece of art that someone thought would be nice to buy or commission. Commissioned art (as gun engraving is) is for the patron, more than an investment.

I, personally, commission my engraving to be done in my skin. Each piece of art is an investment in the artist and marks a period in my life, with no concern about the future value. No different than a Doctor having his sons' faces bulino engraved on a prized rifle( it will never be hunted with, it is for the art and wimsy of the commissioner, not for investment, though someone will both buy and resell it on the secondary market someday).

People invest in original art for the sake of original art, and they can afford to commission it. Don't fault highsierra for dealing with it once it has lost the owner's eye, or has gone to settle an estate. My kids will sell the original art hanging on our walls when we are dead, as we had the connection to the theme and artist, not them.

If I was buying an engraved gun on the secondary market, it would be strictly from an investment viewpoint. If I had the expendible money, I would commission a gun by Lee or Phil or Marcus, but it would be to keep them working as the top of their field and to mark a point in my life, not as an investment.

highsierra keeps talking on behalf of all collectors, which is just not accurate. It seems to me that he simply expresses his viewpoint, trying to convince ppl to trust his words, instead of reality.
Or perhaps this is his way of haggling?

"Secondary" collectors are not what this forum has been all about from it's inception. Peruse a few threads any day of the week and it's obvious.

We'll help identify old work when possible - but what was paid for it usually remains between buyer and the seller.

Not really important - because it's another business entirely...


Brian

highsierra said:

That is why I now buy all of my Colts already engraved. At shows and auctions a 3rd gen SAA engraved like this is readily available for about $3K, and that is including the gun (about$1500). And I find that the full retail price at the show/auction market.

Click to expand...

I'll go back to your original question. I think the auction/retail price you stated was fairly accurate and that Sam's estimate is pretty accurate as well. Granted we are looking at a photo without much detail but I would imagine that given a clean gun with little to no prep time, I could cut something similar to this in two days. Add proper shading and you add time to that. The engraving shown is relatively simple, appears to have little or no shading. Basic budget work. I think Andrew's estimate is a tad high but not out of line. I know I'd charge a little less than that. This is all based on a bad photo of course and not a quote for work obviously.
I think that one of the issues with Colt collectors and factory engraving is that many collectors cannot discern between good and bad, exceptional and so so engraving. The Factory engraved Colt takes the risk of unknowingly buying bad work out of the equation. Though, I'll risk ridicule here by stating that factory engraved doesn't necessarily mean exceptional engraving. Many examples of factory engraving are quite simple (not bad, just simple) and appear to be engraved rather quickly. (I hope someone like Mike or Weldon will back me up on this. or feel free to slap my hands) There are also many examples of amazing factory engraving. Just look at Mike or Weldon's work.
Just my two cents for what little it's worth.
Layne

After reading through six pages of commentary I decided to finally look at the gun....not impressed and wouldn't place a bid on it. Very rudimentary work.

Just to add to Layne's post. I would also like to add Leonard francolini's name as a Colt custom engraver. Some of his work can be seen at http://francolini.com/index.php Scroll thru the right side and click on a picture.

Mike

Just to stir the pot a little, I asked several engravers several years ago to place a value on two guns I had engraved. The estimates varied from 2500-15000! The average was 5600, which was more than I was charging. I raised my prices to just below that, and got more work than I had had before. Just a thought!

Ed Westerly said:

Just to stir the pot a little, I asked several engravers several years ago to place a value on two guns I had engraved. The estimates varied from 2500-15000! The average was 5600, which was more than I was charging. I raised my prices to just below that, and got more work than I had had before. Just a thought!

Click to expand...

When my wife and I owned and operated a candy shop (we made hand crafted lollipops and placed them in "floral-like" arrangements) we learned what "perceived value" was. It is all what the customer perceives the product is worth to THEM. That is why we could sell lollipops at $4.00 each when the convenience store just two doors down sold suckers for a dime. The same principle applies to engraving. Is your work like a "sucker" or something special, like a hand crafted lollipop.

The pattern is basic. No background treatment and very little, if any shading.
If we are talking just the engraving, I can have this done in 2 days.

highsierra said:

Factory engraving is sought after, and the first question is always "is it factory engraved". A non factory engraved gun is also a refinished gun, and refinished guns themselves are highly discounted from guns that have original factory finish. The secondary market is well aware of that.

Click to expand...

If you, and the people you are interacting with, believe that factory engraving is to be sought after and non-factory engraved guns are discounted, you don't seem to be dealing with the real world of engraved firearm collecting...in my opinion.

When I think of all the world class engravers on this forum, those whose name applied to an engraved firearm would greatly enhance the value, I am astonished that anyone would make such a statement. There are a few engravers here that do factory engraving, but I don't think most do it at the factory. The guns are sent to them, in the white, and engraved in their studio (at least that is my understanding).

I am just amazed that anyone would think that a firearm engraved by a world class, master engraver, should be discounted because it wasn't factory engraved.

I think "factory engraved" will always have collector value, because those guns are a part of a gun companies history...and everyone desires to hold a piece of history in their hands. Who wouldn't want a Factory Engraved Colt SAA that belonged to General Patton or Poncho Villa?
The engraving probably wouldn't be a great as today's artists, but it sure would be valuable beyond the average checkbook balance.
Guns engraved by a Master Engraver are usually commissioned by an individual for their personal collection. They are buying the artist.
Naturally, those guns would be cheaper on the secondary market.

I think this depends on which market you are in.
In the world of bespoke guns a known engraver seems to add value. In the world of mint factory guns an unknown engraver seems to detract. In the world of factory guns and known engravers? Well, I guess it's what happens on any given day. Seems to me like there's a certain amount of arguing about the price of an apple versus the price of an orange....or maybe the price of a candy apple
Jeremy