Help, please: Beginning the Hand Engravers Bench Reference

Southern Custom · Mar 2, 2017

I will certainly participate Brian as this would have helped me in the past and could still help me in the future.
It would definitely be a good idea for those of us that do this work on a day to day basis to start quantifying the tasks we do. I often price jobs just from memory, experience and occasionally my gut but I'll try and be more diligent about keeping a time sheet as I go about my day starting with the 5 silver goblets with 40 block letters and 5 large script initials that I have on the bench today.
These days I can come to a pretty accurate idea on most jobs. If I can't I can make a call to another guild member or associate. Early on though, I knew no one and didn't have a clue and therefore lost money or occasionally overcharged not knowing the going rates for average work. Very early on I was guilty of the worst sin of charging to much for substandard work. I don't know if this type of guide could address the last one.
I do have some concerns and I'll get with you through pm to get your opinion when I have a chance but overall I think this is a positive and worthwhile project.
I'll offer up all I can from my experience of 30 years on the jewelry bench, 10 engraving jewelry and around 3 years on guns and knives.
You have your work cut out for you that's for sure.
I'd like to know if anyone else has any concerns about releasing a general guide like this.
Thanks Brian!
Layne

thughes · Mar 2, 2017

Sam, your time breakout was very interesting, thanks. I timed myself recently on each phase of a knife bolster. It took me almost exactly as long to relieve and stipple the background as it did to cut the design and shade it. I'm sure I'm slower than most, but the relative numbers seem OK?

Todd

gcleaker · Mar 2, 2017

I want to help with this to. This is just what I need at this point. I was able to watch a Perazzi engraver up close for ten days when I was working for Fiocchi Ammunition around 1994 at the Grand American. I can say that I have had the sleeping engraver bug ever since, and yes it is kind of like malaria it just does not go away. So letâ€™s get down to it I am using power assisted and doing a little Bulino, it seems like last week when I really started engraving but my first invoice shows it to be almost 2 years ago now. So when I could have taken art classes I was all about cold beer, fast cars, and girls and not necessarily in that order all of the rest of my time I just simply wasted. So having to teach myself to draw has really been one of the greatest barriers for me. I really need so much more work on the art part. I am a closet book worm so expanding my engraving library is based off careful book choices, DVDâ€™s, and U-tube are great assetâ€™s and last but not least our cafÃ©. I am truly looking forward to my first formal class with Rex in May at GRS. He may want to start drinking now just to get ahead of the curve. And yes I do have that effect on people so why wait. I really think a LLC. Is the smartest way to go if you want to make any money and try to protect yourself a little? My accountant set mine it up for about 150.00 earlier this year so I am able to write off the space in the house, tooling and so on. As for contracts itâ€™s just plain smart business for you and your client to spell out what is wanted, you can have them made at staples with your heading and disclaimer or any other terms to be set in stone printed on them. My business plan is to continue to develop my skills then retire from my current employer in six to eight years. Hopefully I will have built this business to be somewhat profitable by then. As for now I am cutting on whatever comes my way.
Skill comes from diligence.

Southern Custom · Mar 2, 2017

I forgot to mention in my last post here that my basic shop rate is $60 per hour or $1 a minute. On some items I have a minimum charge. Guns for instance, I have a $100 minimum if I'm to touch a gun be it pistol or long gun. Do I always make $60 an hour? No. Time has a way of getting away from you in a shop. Typing this for instance. I end up working longer than necessary to make up for it. Fortunately I enjoy being here.
Layne

Brian Marshall · Mar 2, 2017

Dead center of the average so far, Layne. Still early on though...

Maybe we ought to put in a warning - sumthin' sayin' that few actually hit their target?

I know I don't. Something always seems to come up and time gets wasted.

Yesterday I needed a pattern that I KNEW I had. Took me 20 minutes to find it. My fault, not the clients.

B.

Leland Davis · Mar 2, 2017

Brian, don't know if what I do is relevant because I do restoration and engraving my shop rate is 50 dollars per hour for polishing and engraving. I do not have a minimum charge the guns I get need a lot of work so that's covered. I have been lucky enough to build up a clientele of collectors to keep me busy they are making money off what I do and are willing to pay me what I ask. I do not want rip people off but at the same time this is my job so can't work for free. 40 years as a mechanic - machinist has taught me how to estimate how long a job will take usually works but as any job sometimes you do good sometimes you eat it.
Thanks for doing this, Leland

Southern Custom · Mar 2, 2017

As a quick aside. When I got the bill for my boat repairs a few months back, the shop billed out at a bit over $100 an hour. I know my wife's Acura runs near that in shop costs.
And more food for thought. Since I have a trade shop, I often get asked by my retail jewelry store clients what my wholesale charge is for engraving.That's a tough one. I mentioned a while back that I have one client that wanted to put a knife in his showcase. I passed by the other day and asked his wife what he was asking for it and the price was nearly double what I would charge a personal customer. I don't know whether to pull the knife or let it ride and see if he's able to command that price.
I haven't worked in the engraving side of this business long enough to know what the secondary market is like. Is do re-sellers generally add a substantial mark up on engraving. I know when I sold wine, we were lucky to make 10% on a case of wine or liquor. A jeweler would laugh at that type of margin.
What a wacky business this is. Add to it the fine line between what is condidered art and what is considered craft and it's no wonder our customers are so clueless. Just thinking out loud here. Feel free to ignore me.
Layne

monk · Mar 2, 2017

Brian Marshall said:
Thanks Monk, the prices and articles engraved are useful - but the average time to do that is what's gonna make the difference...

Can you add in a timeline please? For example, what engraving are you doing on the belt buckles and how long does it take?

Are you just charging for the hand engraving, or is the buckle itself part of the price you come up with? If so, what is the charge for the engraving alone?

Brian

a typical blackpowder job may take a couple hours. maybe a bit less, maybe more. the more coverage( time) the more money . i have learned to use drawing aids (templates, if you will) that i make to reduce time spent on a job.
i can do a pendant in as little as 10 minutes. an average would be maybe a half hour.
buckles 45 minutes to maybe an hour and a half.
i eliminate much time by using preformed disks, ovals and such. i no longer saw items to shape. all my buckle blanks i get sheared to size. this service i get for very reasonable rates( it pays to know people) and really has no effect on price.
i save tons of time by relying on drawing aids. the pantograph, cnc engraver, and using transfer plates. i keep several scroll (ideas) digitally. i can arrange, size, tweak, stretch, etc and do a diamond drag traceout in a minute or two. these are than engraved over by hand. no internal details just basic spines and such. all detailling done on the fly. logos, names, monograms, and etc are saved for possible future use.
in contrast, my first buckle i sold--- about 20 hours for a $ whopping 10 bucks. longest gun job-- colt saa about 300 hours. the engraving on this gun-- i donated to the local library, to be auctioned off.

monk · Mar 2, 2017

Brian Marshall said:
What do you say to breaking these times down and separating them specifically to layout and then actual engraving? Too complicated?

Would it be better to give a time frame from picking up the pencil/scribe to laying down the graver and taking the job out of the vise?

B.

from day one, i put a stopwatch on everything i did. problem for me, i never broke the time into individual categories. i have , over time, become much more efficient (meaning less time) in doing a given job. i guess experience will do that to us all.

dogcatcher · Mar 2, 2017

monk said:
from day one, i put a stopwatch on everything i did. problem for me, i never broke the time into individual categories. i have , over time, become much more efficient (meaning less time) in doing a given job. i guess experience will do that to us all.

My career was in accounting, on the job we accounted for our client billing time by the 1/10 of an hour. You looked at you watch when you started and ended, and marked the time down in 6 minute increments. I have even carried the time keeping over into my hobbies, when I make a game call, I know how long it should take, if I am sloughing off, I can tell by the time I used. Since I sell the game calls to support my hobby, but at a realistic price, I know that a certain call will take me an average of 17 minutes from start to finish, my cost is about $3. The 17 minutes at $60 an hour is $17 plus material costs, selling price $20.

The new kid on the block, will take an hour to make the same call, no way will he get the same figures, based on mine, he should be getting $60 in labor time plus $3 for materials. For a total of $63 for a sales price. But his being new and slower doesn't entitle him to the same hour charge, he will also get less because his reputation is non existent as a callmaker. If he is lucky he will get $15 maybe $16.

I think that in engraver's reputation has a lot to do with the prices that can be charged. I would expect to pay more for a job done by Sam, than the local guy at the jewelry store. Considering that Sam with his experience would probably get it done in half the time as the local guy, then the local guy could only charge half as much per hour. Then you have the case of 2 master engravers, one of the masters is slow, do they get the same rate as the next master engraver that can do the same job in half the time?

That adds in a lot of variables, but then there are a lot more. Prices will also vary by location, in some cases from one side of town to the other. My expertise is game calls, That $20 call in Abilene Texas is reasonable, but I can go to Midland or Odessa and add another 2 or 3 dollars to the sales price, But if I go to a DFW gun show and I would lose my butt at $20, to get sales I would have to drop to about $15.

Enough preaching, I will let you figure out how this applies to engraving charges. :shock:

Brian Marshall · Mar 3, 2017

It IS gonna apply... look at Jan Hendriks previous post...

BUT, as far as I know there has never been any kind of average time consumed by a fairly standard job - that has been written down - so you can compare your own time to it.

Nor will there ever be a "one size fits all", but something for beginners and engravers who feel they are getting the short end of the stick will be useful. At least that is my hope.

All we can do is try it and see how close we can get to producing something useful?

Brian

Chujybear · Mar 3, 2017

Aaaay... I did this whole thing... must have failed to launch

Brian Marshall said:
General:

Type of engraving you do? Largest percentage first. For example if you are primarily a gun engraver and take on other jobs you might say: Guns 90%, knives 7%, odd jewelry jobs 3%...
Jewellery 80% gold 20% silver.. tho I diversify... wood... writing.. etc

Professional, part time, newbie or hobbyist?
Professional

Years of experience?
18

Hand pushed, hammer & chisel, power assisted or combination? Or combinations like power assisted and bulino?

Hand push, h&c, and power assist... a mixture, almost every project

Any “formal” education? Classes, workshops, apprenticeships, mentors?

Apprenticeships at 16, and 19.. jewellery art and design school 3 yrs... 7 week design cours, w a master artist, engraving class for ray cover, many that I have studied post humously..

How many classes, workshops or private instruction do you attend yearly? Total to date?

0.25 yearly. Ten to date. All art. Just one engraving

What percentage of your education & skills originate from books, DVD’s, website videos, FEGA publications, youtube?

80% books. I read pretty much every day ... but that does not really reflect the richness and value of actual hands on learning.... so I would say half , and more comes from hands on, or interacting with physical objects

Take in information:

Where do your customer contacts come from? Previous personal interaction, referrals, shows, events, exhibitions, Internet website? “social” media”? Other? For example – cold calls... Percentage of clients gained from each?

Most from referrals. Used to be 90% of my work was wholesale gallery work... now that is about 40% of my work, 25% of my income

When you take a job in - do you have a standard written job form w/description, string tags, job envelopes, notebook/records, calendar, time log, or computer stored documentation to organize and track your jobs?

No... and I should

Do you have a written/signed contract with or without detailed description?

No... but I take 30% -50% upfront

Do you take images of the piece before & after?

Yes

Drawings done, not done – extra charge or included in total price estimate?

Drawings for gold

Deposit & percentage thereof?
30-50%

Average turnaround time for an average job in your shop? (If there is such a thing?)

Turnaround, or wait... maybe they are the same thing.. 3-6mos

Do you provide any form of provenance for future use - apart from a signature or hallmark type stamp?

Numbered pieces, if cast.... otherwise no

Brian
instructor@jewelryartschool.com

Brian Marshall · Mar 3, 2017

Thanks!

B.

monk · Mar 3, 2017

Brian Marshall said:
Dead center of the average so far, Layne. Still early on though...

Maybe we ought to put in a warning - sumthin' sayin' that few actually hit their target?

I know I don't. Something always seems to come up and time gets wasted.

Yesterday I needed a pattern that I KNEW I had. Took me 20 minutes to find it. My fault, not the clients.

B.

for me, therein lies one of the saving graces of the computer. assuming no crash, retrieval is just a click or two away. a relational database is worth its weight imho

Brian Marshall · Mar 3, 2017

Ummm, it WAS in the computer... I couldn't remember the bloody file name, the date or even which drive it was in!

If it had been a ready to use transfer sheet or paper drawing I'd have found it in about 3 minutes max - even as disorganized as this place has become here of late.

Brian

diandwill · Mar 4, 2017

I don't know which is quicker (or slower), trying to find a saved file on my computer, or opening, and going through, the drawer that has all the hard copies.

I suppose I could organize them by topic, put them into a file folder with tabs, but I would lose 5-10 hours of work time doing that. Much better to only losee 1-2 hours each time by digging through them and re-organizing the order.

Brian Marshall · Mar 4, 2017

Re-organizing the "disorder" is more like what I do...

B.

monk · Mar 4, 2017

Brian Marshall said:
Ummm, it WAS in the computer... I couldn't remember the bloody file name, the date or even which drive it was in!

If it had been a ready to use transfer sheet or paper drawing I'd have found it in about 3 minutes max - even as disorganized as this place has become here of late.

Brian

ah ! the relational database eliminates the need for an exact file name. i type "scroll", a couple hundred come to be available-- guns, knives, etc,etc. all broken down, neatly arranged. by date,category, client name, etc, etc. it will even dial a clients' phone at the touch of a button. this software allows me to keep track of a rather extensive collection of panto templates i have made. this software is probably 20 years old. worx 4 me

monk · Mar 4, 2017

Brian Marshall said:
Ummm, it WAS in the computer... I couldn't remember the bloody file name, the date or even which drive it was in!

If it had been a ready to use transfer sheet or paper drawing I'd have found it in about 3 minutes max - even as disorganized as this place has become here of late.

Brian

i'm gessin you probably have a lot more info saved than i do. i have only one digital drive to deal with. i use 4 pc's and a laptop. each system is dedicated to a single pursuit. the database is on the pc that runs my laser.

Brian Marshall · Mar 4, 2017

Might be a good idea for me to spend an afternoon organizing MY files like that. Off of the 3 towers, the laptop and the 2 portable drives... and into ONE place with a backup.

Gonna need some of it hand for what I am trying to do with this pricing guide...

B.

Help, please: Beginning the Hand Engravers Bench Reference

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