Help, please: Identifying An Engraver

Ed V

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First if all, I'm brand new to this site and am not an engraver. I own El Dorado Historic Firearms and a client brought me a Colt Frontier Six Shooter, manufactured in 1906 with a Colt authentication letter that states the pistol was sent to the customer with a blued finish, no engraving. The gun was disassembled and no identifying marks, initials, or signatures were found. The inlays are platinum, and the grip inlays are gold. The engraving work appears to be of very high quality, but I'd like any thoughts in that as well. Really appreciate your thoughts!
 

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JJ Roberts

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I see silver inlays and think maybe the engraving was done in Japan and the barrel is covered with scrolls,were did your client find this Colt? J.J.
 

Ed V

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This gun was one of several he acquired in the 80's. One of the guns (not this one) was engraved by Neil Hartliep and bore his signature . This Colt was thought to have come from the Chicago area, but it's not certain. I'm intrigued that the engraving might have been done in Japan. What leads you to think so?
 
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MICHAEL

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I see silver inlays and think maybe the engraving was done in Japan and the barrel is covered with scrolls,were did your client find this Colt? J.J.

JJ, I thought the inlays were silver at first also but the engraving is deep and silver tarnishes. That is why he thinks it's platinum. I have never seen platinum, so I have no idea. I was able to hold this pistol in my hands. It is not a style I am particularly wild about, I'm more "a LDN" man, but the scrolls are Extremely well executed. the leaves appear to be English scroll I also mentioned to Ed that the engraving may have been done overseas. I am a beginner and suggested he post high quality pictures on the Engravers cafe and Lindsey site. We dissassembled the pistol and could find no markings or engravers mark. I also suggests that Roger Bleile lives in Kentucky and we are in east Tn. I thought Roger may be able to meet with them and help him I.D. The engraver. He is also trying to determine the value of this firearm.
 

Ed V

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Thanks, Michael. I greatly appreciate your guidance and was excited to pUT the pistol in the hand of a true engraver. The owner completed removal of the trigger guard, and still no markings. It's a beautiful mystery!
 

JJ Roberts

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Ed,Mike,I believe the Colt was engraved by a Japanese engraver in Japan,they inlay with silver veres gold and like to covering the barrels of the guns they engrave with scrolls the full or half the length of the barrel. J.J.
 

Ed V

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JJ, is there a period in time when this type of engraving is more likely to have taken place? Was it common for such engraver not to have identified him/herself on the work?
 

SamW

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Pure silver does not tarnish nearly as easily as most think. I have silver inlays years old that have not. During the probable time frame this engraving was done platinum was a good bit more expensive than gold and silver was very popular.

If you had a small bit of silver and of platinum to compare to the inlays you might be able to decide, as silver is whiter than platinum.
 

John B.

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I'm with Sam W. 100% on this. Pure .999 silver hardly ever tarnishes.
I have white hunting dogs I did in pure silver on trap guns with 25 years of use and no tarnishing yet
Many of the Japanese engraved guns were not signed and they used a lot of silver. It's much whiter than platinum, as Sam says.
There was a group of three Japanese engravers that toured the US during the '80s and did a LOT of gun engraving under the radar.
Only the "boss" sometimes put his ????? initials ????? on the guns he engraved.
The other two associates were not allowed to sign guns or even talk to customers.
I met them at the old Great Western Show put on by Frank and Mary Barneyak (s) in Pomona, California.
They also toured the Trap/skeet clubs and cut a lot of guns through the blue while the customer waited. Cash and carry.
Hammer and chisel work with the short, maybe 3 1/2 inch Asian style gravers and hammered back towards themselves.
The leaf work within the scrolls looks a lot like the way they did it. Could be one of their guns.
 

Roger Bleile

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Post WWII GIs would order guns from the PX/BX in Japan. There were engravers who worked in or near the PX. They would cover a gun with engraving for a relatively modest fee. A common aspect of these guns was the use of silver inlayed scroll backbones as seen on the subject gun. A similar situation existed with GIs in Germany. The scrollwork on the Japanese guns is easily differentiated from the German, with the German being more refined in both the scroll and animal anatomy.

Despite all of those pictures above, there is not one where I can discern the details of the scroll. I would need to see a sharply focused, well lit close up of the scroll on the side of the frame. I would also need to see a close up of the silver animals on the cylinder. If I can see those things I might be able to tell you something without jumping to conclusions.
 

Roger Bleile

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I'm with Sam W. 100% on this. Pure .999 silver hardly ever tarnishes.
I have white hunting dogs I did in pure silver on trap guns with 25 years of use and no tarnishing yet
Many of the Japanese engraved guns were not signed and they used a lot of silver. It's much whiter than platinum, as Sam says.
There was a group of three Japanese engravers that toured the US during the '80s and did a LOT of gun engraving under the radar.
Only the "boss" sometimes put his ????? initials ????? on the guns he engraved.
The other two associates were not allowed to sign guns or even talk to customers.
I met them at the old Great Western Show put on by Frank and Mary Barneyak (s) in Pomona, California.
They also toured the Trap/skeet clubs and cut a lot of guns through the blue while the customer waited. Cash and carry.
Hammer and chisel work with the short, maybe 3 1/2 inch Asian style gravers and hammered back towards themselves.
The leaf work within the scrolls looks a lot like the way they did it. Could be one of their guns.

John and I must have been typing at the same time. Additionally, the three Japanese engravers John mentioned worked for Robert E. Izenstark who was located in Park Forest,Illinois and known as REI Engraving. The lead engraver was Shiro Ogawa who did sometimes sign "Ogawa" on his work. REI was in business from 1968 to 1973 after which the engravers returned to Setagaya-ku, Tokyo.
 

fegarex

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I would guess this was done state side but by one of the Japanese engravers that have been mentioned in the thread. I coined the phrase "cigarette guns" for the guns done in either Japan or Korea. Usually the fee was traded in American cigarettes. Something quite expensive and hard to get over there but a great deal for the GI. This looks similar but the usual cigarette gun was usually a new gun of that era purchased from the PX. This Colt is much earlier. It could have been done over there but was usually pretty hard to get your own firearm over there.
 

Ed V

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Let me see if I can get some more detailed pics of the scrollwork.

Hopefully, these will provide some added detail.
 

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Roger Bleile

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At this point, all I can say is that the scrollwork on your Colt is not typical of anything I have seen by any Japanese engraver. The silver inlaid animals are also a little better than what I have seen from Japanese engravers. At first blush, all of the silver inlaid scrolls remind of Japanese work but that is where it ends, in my opinion. Japanese engravers mainly cut toward themselves with a flat chisel. That technique leaves distinctive cuts that I don't see on your gun. Also most Japanese gun engraving is based on German scroll, yet is distinctly different. Your gun's scrollwork is based on English scroll executed more in the way Austrian trained engravers cut it.

I have attached a picture below that illustrates typical Japanese gun scroll.

I have also attached a picture of an S&W Model 60, engraved by the aforementioned REI Engraving Co.
 

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Ed V

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Thanks to Mr. Bleile and everyone else who have participated in this thread. It seems the mystery continues somewhat (other than the fact that it appears to be quality work).
 
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