Help, please: Graver won't stop chipping

WSammut · Dec 21, 2016

I am engraving a 14k rose gold band with a 90 hss to do some sculpting. My graver is chipping almost instantly (after just one small cut) almost every time and I have tried everything I can think of. I tried cutting the tip back 1/4" (on Chris Decamillis's advice) if there was a bad section, I used a completely different graver in case it was all bad, I annealed the band, I recut the graver to 100 degrees, I've tried all different face and heel angels. Nothing makes a difference. I did the same exact design in sterling as a practice and had 0 issues. What is going on and how do I stop it???

Brian Marshall · Dec 21, 2016

You are right there where Chris is. See if he will take a look at it and what you are doing - if you bring it to him?

Brian

dlilazteca · Dec 21, 2016

On rose gold? Wow I'm intrested to hear the end of this story. I would try a carbide graver. Dub the point, use an 120 angle with steeper face to give it extra strength. Show us some high resolution pictures of your ring and your graver.

Sent from my SM-N920T using Tapatalk

Sam · Dec 21, 2016

Pardon my asking, but are you certain the ring isn't gold plated? Sounds to me like there could be a brutally hard host metal under a plated surface. If that's not the case and it's definitely 14k, then I see no reason a HSS or carbide graver would instantly break. As Carlos said, use a 120 which is more resistant to breakage than narrow V-gravers (but can be risky to use on curved surfaces if you've never used one!), steeper, face, dub the point, etc.

Also, please turn off the Tatapalk add in your app's settings.

Ron Spokovich · Dec 21, 2016

Sam's right, in that there's no way that 14k should chip your tool. Some of these things are hallmarked, H.G.E., which means 'heavy gold electroplate'. If that's the case, it could be any substrate underneath. Maybe you're just stuck with an exceptionally unusual bad graver, with a lot of bad spots or inclusions that are giving you trouble. It's worth an investigation to see what's going on, and you may just want to try a new graver or maybe just another make!

Eugene Carkoski · Dec 21, 2016

as they say in china , plated base metal, and that could be anything

gcleaker · Dec 21, 2016

Are you sure that your work piece is held tight enough? A small bounce in the work will give you that kind of night mare.
Skill comes from diligence

Brian Marshall · Dec 21, 2016

Fake rose gold plating over carbide is highly unlikely and you cannot anneal it if that were what it was + it would likely shatter upon quenching...

Almost any base metal that I know of that can be cast - can be cut.

Maybe not prettily - but I can't think of any brass or white metal alloy that is hard enough to completely defeat a modern day graver?

Someone who actually KNOWS what they are looking at needs to see the piece and look at your graver(s).

Until then, pretty much all the advice you are gonna get - is gonna be guesses...

Brian

It is possible that vibration could be a factor, so explain how you are holding the piece to whoever takes a look at it.

monk · Dec 21, 2016

WSammut said:
I am engraving a 14k rose gold band with a 90 hss to do some sculpting. My graver is chipping almost instantly (after just one small cut) almost every time and I have tried everything I can think of. I tried cutting the tip back 1/4" (on Chris Decamillis's advice) if there was a bad section, I used a completely different graver in case it was all bad, I annealed the band, I recut the graver to 100 degrees, I've tried all different face and heel angels. Nothing makes a difference. I did the same exact design in sterling as a practice and had 0 issues. What is going on and how do I stop it???

a possible problem: esp when cutting tight turns, the main axis of the graver must align with the direction of the cut. this can produce side forces to the tip, as well as the normal face-on force experienced at the graver tip. just one possible reason. i hope you find a solution.

WSammut · Dec 21, 2016

Thanks for all the responses. It is definitely 14k, ordered it from stuller and the cuts I have made are deep enough to tell. Monks idea makes a little sense if I am understanding correctly, are you saying I cannot angle my graver to the outside of a sharp turn? It you can tell from the pictures this is exactly what I was trying to do for when I sculpt so that may be it. I am about to Resharpen again and try that and another possibility I thought of.
Sam, I just got a new phone and am trying to figure out my apps, I do not see the tatapall app but I went and deleted it from my old phone as well. Hopefully that solves whatever you were talking about, sorry

Brian Marshall · Dec 21, 2016

So there is no more doubt about it not being gold. Looks like it is solidly held.

Monk may have pegged it?

If you are going to lean that far over, maybe try a wider geometry with something steeper than a 45 degree face on your "V" graver? 50 55?

Or use a narrow flat?

B.

Andrew Biggs · Dec 21, 2016

Here’s my experience with rose gold.

It’s a lot harder than you think and can vary considerably in hardness no matter what the specs say about it…………so for bright cutting I use carbide gravers (I use the C-Max carbides but that is a personal preference) It also retains the bright polishing on the graver a lot longer than HSS so you get a brighter cut for longer.

I use 120 gravers with a parallel heel (I use the GRS EasyGraver) but again that is a personal preference. I find the parallel heels means you can cut tighter circles with less tearing edges up behind you.

I also dub the heel very slightly by wiping it about 1” over the ceramic lap and use a 55 degree face

If you want to use a normal heel then keep it small and still make your face 55 degrees and dub slightly.

Technique is also a big part of cutting so small into hard metals. The tighter the turn, the more you have to hold your hand higher than normal.

And yes, you can angle your graver outwards when cutting curves.

Would I use a square 90 HSS graver in rose gold?……….only if it was the only graver I had on my bench

Cheers
Andrew

WSammut · Dec 22, 2016

So I got the engraving finished. I think it was mostly I underestimated just how hard the rose gold was, I knew it was harder then yellow but I think I just didn't realize how much harder it is. That in addition to my pattern and how I was cutting it is why it was chipping I think. Once I got past the sharp turns and angering away from my turn it chipped much less now let's see how the sculpting goes...
Thanks again for all the tips

Sam · Dec 22, 2016

Experienced engravers handle gravers with more control put less stresses on tool points than most beginners. Things like grip, form, etc, obviously can't be seen on an internet forum so we have to assume you're doing that correctly. Poor cutting habits and hogging metal will lead to point failure.

Help, please: Graver won't stop chipping

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